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Post by gwek on Jul 18, 2010 23:39:39 GMT -5
While I see your point of view, I don't necessarily see Shimrra as only a piece to give the YV something that could make the faction, as a whole, better. I do realize that that aspect is important to our goals with Shimrra, but I believe that accuracy to the character is just as important, if not more so. You raise a few interesting points. First, I agree t hat Shimrra should be more than just a faction buffer... but I think that given his high HP (the highest in the game except for the AT-AT), high attack, and relatively high Defense, he's already got a lot going for him. Add to that his manueverability and range of attack, and he's a very unique piece. If his personal damage output is a little low, that's not necessarily a terrible thing, and is well within the "feel" of SWM. Many of the most powerful commanders only have 20 damage with Double (or Triple) Attack, but most of them are limited by the damage buffs that affect them (whereas Shimmra can currently increase his damage by 20 or 30 points per attack). In short, I agree with you that he should do more than make the faction overall better. Where we disagree is that I think he meets this criteria even if he's "hampered" by Double Attack. Second, you bring up the point of character accuracy. Again, I agree that we want to be as accurate as possible, within the stylized context of SWM. So should Shimrra be good at crowd control? Who knows? We never see him fight a crowd! If I recall correctly, we see him fight a sum total of ONCE. For convenience, I have copied the text of Wookieepedia's entry (which I believe is pretty accurate): More on this in a moment. I think high caliber "one-on-one combat abilities" are pretty well-represented by Double Attack already. If he's standing toe-to-toe and slugging it out with an opponent, that Double Attack is definitely going to come into play. Much as I also hate to open up a can of worms, I'm inclined to agree with you that Jedi Hunter may not be the most appropriate. Based on the description of his fight against Luke, I would actually suggest that we replace it with Poison+10, or even Poison+20 or Virulent Poison+10. While I'd kinda like to do Virulent Poison, if we stick with straight Poison, he can't benefit from Yomin Carr's damage booster (which might be a good thing from a game balance point of view). Heck, if we wanted to get really accurate, we might even want to add Clamp or Immobilizing Rend or something. Just some food for thought. If folk like him as is, and would rather just pick Double vs Twin and stick a price on him, I'm okay with that, too.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jul 19, 2010 17:11:20 GMT -5
I like the idea of replacing Jedi Hunter with something that could affect a larger number of pieces, and would be more accurate to the piece. Poison +20, or Virulent Poison +10, would be excellent replacements for Jedi Hunter, IMO. Clamp is probably too powerful with Furious Assault. (Unless we want to hike Shimrra's cost back up to the high 60s. It would make Shimrra an exceptional crowd control piece, dealing extra damage and rooting enemies in place for allies to attack, and he would be able to help out the YV even more. Not necessarily something I'm against, but it's quite a drastic change from what we had.) Immobilizing Rend is a fantastic idea. I would be in favour of replacing Jedi Hunter with:
-Immobilizing Rend or Poison +20 -Clamp (and likely increasing the cost) -Virulent Poison +10
In that order. I can't really decide whether I would like IR or Poison +20, both would be excellent replacements for Jedi Hunter (IMO). Clamp may make the piece, in terms of accuracy and playability, even better (even with the cost increase), but that's a big change from our current Shimrra, and likely will require more discussion. Virulent Poison +10, while interesting and accurate, doesn't appeal to me as much as the other abilities because of the multiple saves required for living characters attacked by Shimrra if Shimrra's boosted by Yomin Carr.
That said, I would like to here other's opinions on this matter.
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Post by Dendrite on Jul 19, 2010 17:25:26 GMT -5
Flavor text options: -"Long life to Shimrra, beloved of the gods!" -"We shall teach the New Republic the glory of the gods." -During his time as Onimi's puppet, Shimrra was characterized by his cruelty, his desire to protect his power, and his ability to manipulate others.
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Post by gwek on Jul 19, 2010 23:14:54 GMT -5
I like the idea of replacing Jedi Hunter with something that could affect a larger number of pieces, and would be more accurate to the piece. Poison +20, or Virulent Poison +10, would be excellent replacements for Jedi Hunter, IMO. Clamp is probably too powerful with Furious Assault. (Unless we want to hike Shimrra's cost back up to the high 60s. It would make Shimrra an exceptional crowd control piece, dealing extra damage and rooting enemies in place for allies to attack, and he would be able to help out the YV even more. Not necessarily something I'm against, but it's quite a drastic change from what we had.) Immobilizing Rend is a fantastic idea. I would be in favour of replacing Jedi Hunter with: -Immobilizing Rend or Poison +20 -Clamp (and likely increasing the cost) -Virulent Poison +10 In that order. I can't really decide whether I would like IR or Poison +20, both would be excellent replacements for Jedi Hunter (IMO). Clamp may make the piece, in terms of accuracy and playability, even better (even with the cost increase), but that's a big change from our current Shimrra, and likely will require more discussion. Virulent Poison +10, while interesting and accurate, doesn't appeal to me as much as the other abilities because of the multiple saves required for living characters attacked by Shimrra if Shimrra's boosted by Yomin Carr. That said, I would like to here other's opinions on this matter. I pretty much agree with everything you've said. I think we should nix Virulent Poison for now, and I might actually be okay with "just" Poison +10 with either Immobilizing Rend (assuming we can fit it all on the card). Although I do like Resilient on him, I'd be willing to take it off in favor of these abilities. Are we talking about him with Twin or with Double? If we give him a movement breaker, I think Twin might be too powerful. In looking at the possible abilities, I think maybe Clamp IS the way to go (especially if we keep him with Double. I'm kinda liking this: Supreme Overlord ShimrraFaction: Yuuzhan Vong Cost: 65?Hit Points: 200 Defense: 21 Attack: 16 Damage: 20 Unique, Melee Attack; Double AttackClamp (An enemy hit by this character's attack takes +10 Damage and cannot move this round; save 11 negates) Force Immunity (Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities) Furious Assault (Replaces turn: Can move up to 12 squares, then attack each legal target once) Melee Reach 2 (When attacking, this character treats enemies up to 2 squares away as adjacent) Resilient (Immune to critical hits) Commander Effect:Yuuzhan Vong allies gain Furious Assault. During his time as Onimi's puppet, Shimrra was characterized by his cruelty, his desire to protect his power, and his ability to manipulate others.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jul 20, 2010 0:53:53 GMT -5
I like the idea of replacing Jedi Hunter with something that could affect a larger number of pieces, and would be more accurate to the piece. Poison +20, or Virulent Poison +10, would be excellent replacements for Jedi Hunter, IMO. Clamp is probably too powerful with Furious Assault. (Unless we want to hike Shimrra's cost back up to the high 60s. It would make Shimrra an exceptional crowd control piece, dealing extra damage and rooting enemies in place for allies to attack, and he would be able to help out the YV even more. Not necessarily something I'm against, but it's quite a drastic change from what we had.) Immobilizing Rend is a fantastic idea. I would be in favour of replacing Jedi Hunter with: -Immobilizing Rend or Poison +20 -Clamp (and likely increasing the cost) -Virulent Poison +10 In that order. I can't really decide whether I would like IR or Poison +20, both would be excellent replacements for Jedi Hunter (IMO). Clamp may make the piece, in terms of accuracy and playability, even better (even with the cost increase), but that's a big change from our current Shimrra, and likely will require more discussion. Virulent Poison +10, while interesting and accurate, doesn't appeal to me as much as the other abilities because of the multiple saves required for living characters attacked by Shimrra if Shimrra's boosted by Yomin Carr. That said, I would like to here other's opinions on this matter. I pretty much agree with everything you've said. I think we should nix Virulent Poison for now, and I might actually be okay with "just" Poison +10 with either Immobilizing Rend (assuming we can fit it all on the card). Although I do like Resilient on him, I'd be willing to take it off in favor of these abilities. Are we talking about him with Twin or with Double? If we give him a movement breaker, I think Twin might be too powerful. In looking at the possible abilities, I think maybe Clamp IS the way to go (especially if we keep him with Double. I'm kinda liking this: Supreme Overlord ShimrraFaction: Yuuzhan Vong Cost: 65?Hit Points: 200 Defense: 21 Attack: 16 Damage: 20 Unique, Melee Attack; Double AttackClamp (An enemy hit by this character's attack takes +10 Damage and cannot move this round; save 11 negates) Force Immunity (Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities) Furious Assault (Replaces turn: Can move up to 12 squares, then attack each legal target once) Melee Reach 2 (When attacking, this character treats enemies up to 2 squares away as adjacent) Resilient (Immune to critical hits) Commander Effect:Yuuzhan Vong allies gain Furious Assault. During his time as Onimi's puppet, Shimrra was characterized by his cruelty, his desire to protect his power, and his ability to manipulate others.I like him at 65-68 with Clamp, and 57-60 with Immobilizing Rend and Poison +10 and without Resilient. I like both versions equally; we can either go with a powerful Furious Assault piece or a slightly less effective Furious Assault piece who has some more versatility while using Double Attack.
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Post by gwek on Jul 20, 2010 9:03:20 GMT -5
I'm okay with either of those. Let's see what other folk have to say.
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Post by Dendrite on Jul 22, 2010 10:33:13 GMT -5
Immobilizing Rend seems the better option, he can pin down opponents to give his fellow Vong a chance to strike those elusive shooters
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Post by gwek on Aug 8, 2010 23:19:39 GMT -5
Although Immobilizing Rend doesn't have a save, I think Clamp, which allows him to immobilize multiple targets, would synergize very nicely with Furious Assault.
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Post by Dendrite on Aug 8, 2010 23:23:26 GMT -5
Ahh...that's true. I overlooked the 'same enemy' clause in IR. In that case, I also vote for Clamp.
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Post by gwek on Aug 8, 2010 23:25:21 GMT -5
That gives us 2 votes in favor of:
Supreme Overlord Shimrra Faction: Yuuzhan Vong Cost: 65? Hit Points: 200 Defense: 21 Attack: 16 Damage: 20
Unique, Melee Attack; Double Attack Clamp (An enemy hit by this character's attack takes +10 Damage and cannot move this round; save 11 negates) Force Immunity (Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities) Furious Assault (Replaces turn: Can move up to 12 squares, then attack each legal target once) Melee Reach 2 (When attacking, this character treats enemies up to 2 squares away as adjacent) Resilient (Immune to critical hits)
Commander Effect: Yuuzhan Vong allies gain Furious Assault.
During his time as Onimi's puppet, Shimrra was characterized by his cruelty, his desire to protect his power, and his ability to manipulate others.
Two more votes and he's done.
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Post by surfrider56 on Aug 9, 2010 22:29:32 GMT -5
My brain is mush from listening to babies, nieces, and in-Laws ... where'd we get Clamp? Is he Really as big as a Ng'ok? I don't remember the books well enough to comment on this ....
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Post by gwek on Aug 10, 2010 13:52:06 GMT -5
Check out respose 225 (first response on page 16). I don't want to go back and re-read the final fight in NJO (which is, I think, the ONLY time we really see Shimrra open up), so I've copied the text from Wookieepedia (much as I hate to use it as a primary source).
In the description of the battle, it notes that he uses his special amphistaff to both entangle and poison Luke. I offered a few special abilities, or combos of special abilities, that might replicate that.
Which ability (or combo) we go with (if any) depends on a few factors:
1) Where do we want him on the scale of "accurate" vs "useful"
2) How "efficient" do we want him to be (ie, how much should his own abilities synergize)?
3) How much do we want him to cost?
For example, if we look at Immobilizing Rend vs Clamp, I think that Clamp makes him more "efficient" (since Clamp can be used with Furious Assault, whereas Immobilizing Rend can't). It also helps the faction significantly, in that he can "freeze" multiple targets in a single action.
On the other hand, Immobilizing Rend, which implies he's dedicating his combat focus to a single opponent, may be more ACCURATE in the depiction of his amphistaff winding around a single opponent.
Honestly, I could go either way, based on how the crowd (such as we are these days) wants to go.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Aug 11, 2010 22:03:37 GMT -5
I like this version, I think Clamp is close enough to what Shimrra might have done (considering we don't see him in combat too much) and is effective enough that it works. I like this new version, but the flavour text strikes me as kind of odd. It seems to indicate that Shimrra is effectively a "manipulative puppet", which doesn't really seem right to me. If he was manipulative, wouldn't it be Omini who's doing the manipulating? Other than that little part, I like him.
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Post by gwek on Aug 12, 2010 13:30:31 GMT -5
Can you suggest a re-phrase (or alternate flavor text)? I think I've been staring at him for too long...
I believe that tentatively gives us 3/4 votes on the stats.
Further thoughts?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Aug 13, 2010 22:42:47 GMT -5
Perhaps something like this:
As Supreme Overlord of the Yuuzhan Vong, Shimrra ruled with an iron fist and had a reputation for being ruthless and cruel.
Not exactly perfect, but it works. Thoughts?
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