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Post by gwek on Jul 13, 2010 14:36:55 GMT -5
Apples and oranges, Dendrite.
Personally, I think we should avoid Twin Attack, if only to avoid having to write it out.
It might be worth taking a look at the impact of Twin Attack and Furious Assault, because Shimrra not only has Furious Assault, but also gives it out to Vong allies who may have it.
Certainly, placement is important (because of the 6 square limit on this), but the Vong have access to a number of unique damage boosters (Cunning Attack, Momentum, and Poison from CEs; Scarification and Shaper from special abilities). That's not counting Fringe CEs (and since most Vong pieces are non-Unique, there are more than a few).
Assuming at least one of these is in play, the Average Vong lackey is going to be Twin-attacking for 20-30 per attack (for a potential of 40-60 with Twin). Now, thanks to Shimrra, he can twin Furious, so the damage output on a lowly piece increases dramatically (especially against a less experienced player) and/or forces the opponent to chose his placement VERY carefully (to deny the Vong use of Furious Assault).
I don't necessary thing that's a bad thing--indeed, the Vong as an advancing horde of high-damage melee lawn-mowers seems appropriate--but I think all that needs to be factored into his cost.
Shimrra's +16 attack means he's not going to miss too often, and he's subject to most of the same damage boosters (so can easily get up to 30-50 per attack). Furious Assault + Melee Reach means he has a lot of maneuverability paired with the ability to strike multiple enemies (and to force enemy placement to be even more dramatically curtailed if an opponent wants to try to thwart him). Add Twin on to that, and it's conceivable that Shimrra can dish out well over 100 (or even 200) damage in an activation on a regular basis.
Again, I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing, but it's all something to think about.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jul 13, 2010 17:30:23 GMT -5
If we switch to Twin, remember that it synergizes VERY well with Furious Assault. He can move and twin attack every target within reach (and he has Reach 2). Yeah, that was my intention... I'm not sure if the synergy was included in surf's price estimates, though. I was thinking it would raise his price to about 60.
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Post by surfrider56 on Jul 13, 2010 18:13:17 GMT -5
Yeah, that was my intention... I'm not sure if the synergy was included in surf's price estimates, though. I was thinking it would raise his price to about 60. Indeed not; I pretty much call it as I see it; you start adding Syn to it, I could easily see it going up 2-5 pts more in cost ... conservatively.
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Post by gwek on Jul 14, 2010 15:15:25 GMT -5
Okay, I think this is where we were. I have not officially changed Double to Twin. What do people think?
Supreme Overlord Shimrra Faction: Yuuzhan Vong Cost: 55-60? Hit Points: 200 Defense: 21 Attack: 16 Damage: 20
Unique, Melee Attack; Double Attack Force Immunity (Enemies cannot affect this character with Force powers, or spend Force points to reroll attacks against this character or to respond to this character's attacks and abilities) Furious Assault (Replaces turn: Can move up to 12 squares, then attack each legal target once) Jedi Hunter (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against enemies with Force ratings) Melee Reach 2 (When attacking, this character treats enemies up to 2 squares away as adjacent) Resilient (Immune to critical hits) Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, he makes 1 extra attack against the same target)
Commander Effect: Yuuzhan Vong allies gain Furious Assault.
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Post by surfrider56 on Jul 14, 2010 16:08:13 GMT -5
Not a fan of Twin for him ... too many worms, not enough cans ....
Warmaster is 63. Projected cost 55-60
Split the difference and call it 59?
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Post by gwek on Jul 15, 2010 9:24:10 GMT -5
I would be happy to stay with Double, and would be okay with 59, but would prefer a point or 2 cheaper (57-58).
He may well cost less than Warmaster Tsavong Lah, but I'm okay with that (there are Yodas and Maces that cost less than the most expensive Kenobi, and the cheapest Republic Yoda has 4-5 other Jedi who are more expensive).
Since the issue of size has come up in other threads, I'm assuming that our Shimrra will be medium, although a case can be made for him to be large (based on description in the books). If we go large, I would pump up the cost by a few points, because that increases the extent of what he can hit (via Melee Reach and Furious Assault) fairly significantly.
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Post by surfrider56 on Jul 15, 2010 12:23:20 GMT -5
Size brings up another question. Is he as big as a Togorian, Yuzzem, T1, a Jabba, or any of the Dark Troopers? Probably ... do we want to go there ....... Don't Know, but that would change things a little.
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Post by Dendrite on Jul 15, 2010 13:52:45 GMT -5
Maybe he's only a 'Durge, Jedi Hunter' level of big.
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Post by surfrider56 on Jul 15, 2010 14:55:54 GMT -5
Maybe he's only a 'Durge, Jedi Hunter' level of big. Which could lead to another discussion in that Durge JH could easily have been a large just as the Durge mini from Clone Strike.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jul 15, 2010 16:40:53 GMT -5
Personally, I'd prefer Twin, because Shimrra's not doing a lot of damage himself. Sure, he can be pumped up to more powerful levels, but he should be able to stand by himself. At this point, he isn't doing a lot of damage, except with Furious Assault. Twin also gives him something different from the Warmaster.
If we would rather give him Double, why not go Triple? At this point, there's almost no reason for him to sit still.
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Post by gwek on Jul 15, 2010 20:13:25 GMT -5
Personally, I'd rather go Triple (or even Quadruple!) than Twin. I agree that he has no real reason to sit still. I think we'd discussed very early on that Triple and Furious Attack would give him two very different options, but Triple was nixed because of Tsavong Lah.
With Furious Assault, Shimmra CAN dish out a large amount of damage, just in a somewhat unconventional way. He's almost like Sauron (from the opening moments of FotR): he can blow through hordes of lackeys and low HP pieces, but just doesn't necessarily dish out as much when toe-to-toe with another big gun.
I don't know that that's necessarily a bad thing, because it sort of serves to distinguish him from Shimrra. Want a reaping storm? Play Shimrra. Want to stand and deliver? Tsavong Lah might be a better bet.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jul 15, 2010 21:47:29 GMT -5
That's an interesting comparison, but the opening scenes from FotR with Sauron don't really have a comparison in SWM. Sure, swarm squads are played somewhat consistently, but against most other squad types, Shimrra is really set back in terms of the damage he can deal. Not necessarily a problem, but it's something to think about.
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Post by gwek on Jul 16, 2010 0:02:49 GMT -5
I was just trying to give a visual! To me, Shimrra's value (as currently statted) is NOT in his damage output. The Vong don't really need that, since they have access to a number of pieces capable of Double-Twin attacks for 20-40 damage (with the right combo of support). Between his Melee Reach and Furious Attack, I think Shimrra has almost as much grunt-killer potential as a strafer like YoBuck or the IG-Lancer. With his high Attack and Hit Points (and relatively high Defense), he can soak a lot of damage and is very rarely going to hit, which makes him a great hunter of shooters (currently a weakness of the Vong faction). Thanks to Melee reach (especially if we decide to make him Large), opponents have to very carefully position their pieces, or risk having multiple pieces damaged (if not defeated) in a single sweep from Shimrra. And his commander effect, of course, lends manuevarability and increased damage to any Vong squad. Even if HIS damage is considered a bit limited, the potential he offers his allies makes up for it, I think. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying about his overall damage being a bit low for his cost, but early discussion in this thread noted that more damage wasn't what the faction needed. As statted, Shimrra helps them move, and helps limited the movement options of the opponent (at least the safe options). I think the faction needs that more than someone who can dish out a lot of damage. Or, we could always raise his base damage back to 30.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jul 16, 2010 22:02:13 GMT -5
Oh no, it was a good comparison, the current stats for Shimrra and our first glimpse of Sauron in combat in FotR are very similar.
While I see your point of view, I don't necessarily see Shimrra as only a piece to give the YV something that could make the faction, as a whole, better. I do realize that that aspect is important to our goals with Shimrra, but I believe that accuracy to the character is just as important, if not more so.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the Furious Assault angle, but do we ever read about Shimrra taking out masses of enemies? The only combat I can remember him in was against single opponents (correct me if I am wrong - it has been some time since I've read the books). While I don't think we should remove the Furious Assault aspect of him, I think we should probably increase his one-on-one combat abilities, if only slightly.
I would question Jedi Hunter, and whether it fits him, but I don't want to open up too many questions at once on one piece that seems so near finalization.
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Post by Jm419 on Jul 18, 2010 22:42:07 GMT -5
Hmm. The character limit is a good point. If Twin fits, I'd say go for it. If it doesn't, leave it at Double, and go with a cost of...say, 56? 58? That probably doesn't change the cost too much.
Aside from that, I'd leave the character alone. Unless we really like Twin - more than we like Jedi Hunter - I'd say the Double is a wiser move, once we factor in the character limits on the card.
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