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Post by gwek on Aug 25, 2010 23:14:45 GMT -5
Does the Blast Cannon idea do anything for ya?
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Post by Dendrite on Aug 26, 2010 17:36:40 GMT -5
Does the Blast Cannon idea do anything for ya? Better than anything I can think of at the moment...
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Aug 27, 2010 23:25:45 GMT -5
Does the Blast Cannon idea do anything for ya? It's okay, but I can't say I like it as much as I would like a CS ARC-specific CE.
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Post by gwek on Aug 28, 2010 10:59:01 GMT -5
I intended it to be:
Twin for ALL ARC Troopers Blast Cannon for characters with the name ARC Trooper
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Post by Dendrite on Aug 29, 2010 9:58:31 GMT -5
Couple more CE ideas in case we don't like blast cannon...
-Independent Outfit -Mobile Attack (although there's always Queen Amidala) -Long Shot 10/20 (Since ARC troopers are the only of the two would would last a round with half or less HP...kinda) -Micro-Vision
Maybe?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Aug 30, 2010 21:32:56 GMT -5
I intended it to be: Twin for ALL ARC Troopers Blast Cannon for characters with the name ARC Trooper I'm not necessarily opposed to that idea, but we have a lot of two-part CEs in this set (four), and I'd rather not see another one if we don't need it. A lot of our ideas are decent, but I think we need to know what our goal is for this piece if we're going to decide on a good CE. Is Fordo a good combatant that boosts ARC Troopers in general, or is he a good combatant that is meant to improve the effectiveness of the original ARCs? I would suggest we go for one or the other, rather than trying to do something in the middle.
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Post by surfrider56 on Aug 31, 2010 0:37:18 GMT -5
I intended it to be: Twin for ALL ARC Troopers Blast Cannon for characters with the name ARC Trooper I'm not necessarily opposed to that idea, but we have a lot of two-part CEs in this set (four), and I'd rather not see another one if we don't need it. A lot of our ideas are decent, but I think we need to know what our goal is for this piece if we're going to decide on a good CE. Is Fordo a good combatant that boosts ARC Troopers in general, or is he a good combatant that is meant to improve the effectiveness of the original ARCs? I would suggest we go for one or the other, rather than trying to do something in the middle. Agree with BH; lets not try to cure everything with two-part CE's. The Republic doesn't need another Rex ... lets decide which One CE ability we should use by deciding what is his primary purpose in a game ....
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Post by gwek on Aug 31, 2010 9:45:23 GMT -5
I'm not opposed to a single, simple CE. I was trying for a compound one because there was some discussion of boosting the original ARC Trooper pieces (as opposed to them AND the all-around superior ARC Trooper Snipers). Before we on that discussion, I think we were here with Fordo: ARC Trooper Captain FordoFaction: Republic Cost: Hit Points: 70 Defense: 16 Attack: 10 Damage: 20 Unique, Order 66Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy) Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, she makes 1 extra attack against the same target) Commander Effect:Allied characters whose name contains ARC Trooper gain Twin Attack. If ever an ARC trooper had a soft spot, it was Fordo's for overwhelming firepower.***** As he stands, he think he's a nice, solid shooter. Spectacular? Nope. But given the faction he's in, he doesn't need to be. His "weakness" is that he doesn't do anything special for the Clone Strike ARC Troopers, so they're still pretty useless pieces. If we like this concept overall, I can see a few different options: 1) Approve him as is. 2) Add "Accurate Shot" to the CE, so both types of ARC get Twin AND Accurate Shot (which the Snipers already have). This brings the regular ARCs more to even footing (they have more HP and Grenades vs the Deadeye the Sniper has). 3) Add Rapport to reduce the cost of ARCs (in that case, I would suggest either the Rapport be for all ARCs and the CE for Clone Strike ARCs, or vice versa). 4) Add a new special ability that affects either all ARCs or CS ARCs, which would allow us to boost the CS ARCs without a compound CE. Of all solutions I've suggested, I think I favor #2.
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Post by surfrider56 on Aug 31, 2010 12:19:44 GMT -5
I actually like #2 and #3.
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Post by Dendrite on Aug 31, 2010 17:30:42 GMT -5
I actually like #2 and #3. Ditto
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Aug 31, 2010 17:52:07 GMT -5
I still like a CS ARC Trooper-only CE. But I also like #2 and #3. I still think the Sniper would be better than the CS ARC, even with a Rapport AND Accurate Shot from the CE. I don't know if giving out AS in the CE is a good idea if one of the two pieces that benefit already has it, but it could work.
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Post by gwek on Aug 31, 2010 19:02:08 GMT -5
The problem that I see with giving him a CE that only affects CS ARCs is that it basically forces him to work with just one piece, and a somewhat substandard one at that. It also feels a bit like it's "punishing" the ARC Sniper, which, while superior to the CS ARC, isn't an amazing piece to begin with.
My personal opinion is that the best solution is for him to be a piece who works well with both ARCs, but ideally who helps the CS ARC a little more.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Aug 31, 2010 22:39:29 GMT -5
The problem that I see with giving him a CE that only affects CS ARCs is that it basically forces him to work with just one piece, and a somewhat substandard one at that. It also feels a bit like it's "punishing" the ARC Sniper, which, while superior to the CS ARC, isn't an amazing piece to begin with. My personal opinion is that the best solution is for him to be a piece who works well with both ARCs, but ideally who helps the CS ARC a little more. I don't really see it as forcing Fordo to work with one piece so much as it helps out one piece. If Fordo is cheap enough (and, if the CE only affects CS ARCs, it won't add much to his cost), he'd be a good support shooter for a squad, who would also help out CS ARCs, but the main reason to play him wouldn't be for his CE. And while a specific CE may punish the Sniper a bit, it isn't a horrible piece (I'd say that it's an average piece, but the Republic offers a lot of other options - namely Sevs - that get some of the Sniper's playing time), and it doesn't need a boost nearly as much as the CS ARC does. Other than a two-part CE (which I think we should avoid if we can), I don't see any way of helping both ARCs while helping the original a bit more. It's too bad, because I would like to see something like that too, but I can't think of anything that would work, and nothing that has been suggested so far seems to work.
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Post by gwek on Aug 31, 2010 23:50:33 GMT -5
While I am a big fan of rehabilitating older pieces, I don't think it's in the cards here.
I don't think we want Fordo to be a game-changer, but he should fill a decent niche. If we keep the stats close to the way they currently are, he already fills that niche by becoming the cheapest Twin Accurate shooter in the game. Arguably, we should lower his HP and possibly raise his cost to the low 30s simply by comparison with the other Twin Accurates, who are all in the high 40s+ (although they all have a bunch of other stuff).
So, if we want him to have a unique role on his own, he already does. So unless we want to do something else with what HE does (which I'm open to, if we have other ideas), let's now look at him as a commander.
Given the number of commander effects the Republic already has access to, I'm fine with a very limited and specific commander effect, and if we go that route, ARC Troopers makes sense. I don't think it necessarily makes sense for him to ONLY buff the CS ARCs though, since, theoretically, ARC Snipers are also part of his squad.
So let's look at the 2 ARC pieces for a moment. Both have Order 66, 20 Damage, Attack of 10. The CS has 10 more HP, but the Sniper has a better attack.
The CS ARC has Grenades 10 while the (clearly superior) Sniper has Accurate Shot, Deadeye, and Sniper.
Without resorting to a compound commander effect, there's not much we can do that helps the CS ARC more than it helps the Sniper unless:
1) We completely shaft the Sniper (which seems bad form to be) 2) We give the CS ARC something the Sniper already has (Accurate Shot, Sniper, or Deadeye)
While #2 will not make really put the CS ARC on an even playing field with the Sniper, I honestly don't think it can be done easily.
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Post by gwek on Sept 1, 2010 0:06:48 GMT -5
Having said all that, here is another attempt at a Fordo that works well with both ARCs but boosts the CS ARC more. Unfortunately, it runs against the mantra of "simplify"
ARC Trooper Captain Fordo Faction: Republic Cost: 32 Hit Points: 60 Defense: 16 Attack: 10 Damage: 20
Unique, Order 66 Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy) Big Guns (Allies within 6 squares named ARC Trooper gain Blaster Cannon) Blast Cannon (+10 Damage against targets within 6 squares) Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, she makes 1 extra attack against the same target)
Commander Effect: Allied characters whose name contains ARC Trooper gain Accurate Shot and Twin Attack.
If ever an ARC trooper had a soft spot, it was Fordo's for overwhelming firepower.
*****
Blast Cannon gives Fordo very high damage up close and synchs nicely with his tactics of using heavy firepower. Similarly, Big Guns reflects that in his followers, and calls to mind the image of handing out heavy weapons, which I believe we see in the original animated series.
The Twin Attack part of the commander effect makes both types of ARC considerably more effective, and both have the possibility of dishing out 60 damage, based on circumstances.
Accurate Shot, of course, helps only the CS ARCs, but creates a different dynamic than the Snipers. (I considered making the CE give out Sniper rather than Acc Shot, but then that made me wonder if I should switch it for Fordo himself).
Now, I don't necessarily think this puts the CS ARCs on even footing with the ARC Snipers (which was not my intention), but I think it gives them both different ROLES. Because the have slightly higher HPs and are most effective within 6 squares, the CS ARCs advance (staying fairly close to Fordo himself), while the Snipers set up positions of safety and hang back. Sniper and Acc Shot allow them a lot of flexibility, but Deadeye doesn't benefit them unless the have snipers' nests from which to strike, giving them a very different "feel" than the ARCs with "Big Guns."
You may be wondering how I arrived at the cost of 32:
ARC Sniper x 2 = 32 ARC Trooper x 2 = 36 32 + 26 =68 100 - 68 = 32
As is, I do think he should be low to mid-30s, and the price just worked itself out.
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