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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 8, 2009 1:19:20 GMT -5
Since I've already made a custom ( Link Here) of Fordo, I thought I might as well kick off our stat making for him. There's no existing Fordo stats in the database, so we'll have to start from scratch. Here's some text from Wookieepedia: Far from being a subtle man, Fordo preferred straightforward tactics, employing overwhelming firepower as opposed to complicated strategies. He eventually became famous for his bombastic approach to any given situation, which continually awarded him success. So I'm thinking something along the lines of... Captain Fordo Cost: 26 HP: 70 Def: 16 Att: 10 Dmg: 20 SA: Unique, ARC Trooper, Order 66, Twin Attack, Mobile Attack, Accurate Shot CE: Allied ARC troopers gain Squad Assault and Squad Firepower. He was designed off of Captain Rex. Fordo has very similar stats to Rex (-2 attack) but also costs 7 points less. He counts as an ARC Trooper (for his CE) and has Twin and Mobile, also similar to Rex. The biggest difference (IMO) is Fordo's Accurate Shot. As of now, the Republic has five Accurate Shooters, two of which are not really competitive. Of the remaining three, two of them have low damage outputs (Cody and CC Cody). Fordo is here to bridge the gap between Sev and Rex. Good damage output with Accurate Shot. Next is the CE. I knew he had to have something for ARC's to help bring them back into play (at least, more so). Wookieepedia says that he "employed overwhelming firepower". So I thought that Squad Assault and Firepower might be interesting. The Squad restrictions could be regated by Gree, but it still shows how his group (Muunlinst 10) stuck together. Remember that this is just one possible rendition! This thread is for all stats that you have. Please, however, don't just post the stats. Post the stats, how you think they represent the character well, and comment on the other sets of existing stats.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 8, 2009 19:03:28 GMT -5
That's an interesting rendition. He's a very, very good shooter, even without the CE, he'd easily be worth 26 points. I don't know if you'd want to give the Republic another excellent mobile shooter. I would say give him a lower attack score (probably 8), if you want to keep Accurate Shot and Mobile Attack. The CE is good for the ARCs, but you might want to consider straight up +4 attack and +10 damage, because they don't have a lot of uses as of now.
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Post by saber1 on Dec 8, 2009 19:06:24 GMT -5
I like it. Strong, but not overly powerful. Nice work.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 8, 2009 20:06:44 GMT -5
That's an interesting rendition. He's a very, very good shooter, even without the CE, he'd easily be worth 26 points. I don't know if you'd want to give the Republic another excellent mobile shooter. I would say give him a lower attack score (probably 8), if you want to keep Accurate Shot and Mobile Attack. The CE is good for the ARCs, but you might want to consider straight up +4 attack and +10 damage, because they don't have a lot of uses as of now. I welcome your opinion, but I don't see how he's a "very very good shooter". He's good yes, but not super powerful. He only has 2 shots at +10. (remember that Rex is packing in 4 shots at +12) Regarding the CE. I was about to change it but then remembered that if Fordo is giving a stat bonus, the ARC's wont be eligible for other stat bonuses. (GOWK/GMY) Any opinions on this matter?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 9, 2009 16:33:15 GMT -5
I don't think you should compare him to Rex. I don't think anyone should compare any piece to him. He's one of the most undercosted pieces in the game, maybe the most.
Anyway, he is a very very good shooter. Any character with Mobile and Twin is very powerful. And it would be fine if he has those two abilities. The problem here is with Accurate Shot. Currently, from WotC, there are three different pieces in the game with Mobile Attack, Twin Attack, and Accurate Shot:
Han Solo, Scoundrel - 46 points Mira - 47 points Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter - 62 points
The important thing to note here is that they all cost a lot more than 26 points. The fact that this guy can easily pump someone for 40 from across the board at +10 attack makes him deadly.
In fact, I actually like what you're doing here, but it's definitely for the wrong faction. The Republic already has the amazing Rex and Dash Renegade Smuggler. Do you really think they need a third powerful, super-cheap shooter, while the other factions are left with one?
Good point on the CE, I forgot about that. Hmm. I can't think of anything the Republic couldn't give to ARC Troopers, so I guess the Squad abilities are fine.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 9, 2009 17:31:15 GMT -5
I would disagree on your assessment of Rex, but we'll leave that for another day . Your list of characters with Mobile, Twin, and Accurate is correct. However, you forgot to also find the pieces that don't necessarily have Twin, but have a similar damage output. Jawa Scavenger (Mobile with Rieekan or Wedge, also has Stealth) Han, Smuggler (Mobile with Rieekan) Han, Rebel Hero Han, Rogue HanTaun Deliah Blue Aurra Sing (Mobile with Rieekan or Wedge) Luke, LotLS (getting pretty high cost-wise) Since we seem to be polar opposites on this matter, I suggest we wait for some more opinions.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 10, 2009 16:13:32 GMT -5
Indeed. Another day.
You can't really compare Fordo here to those who need Rieekan/Wedge to get their abilities, because you have to pay for the CE, which makes it slightly more balanced. I haven't even included the CEs this guy could get (which isn't much, other than Flobi). And the other ones have situational damage outputs, as in Cunning Attack or Jedi Hunter or something of the like.
The only one I find to be comparable is Luke Skywalker, Legacy of the Light Side. But still, he costs 13 points more than Fordo here (currently) does. Sure, Luke offers a bit more for the higher cost. But giving the Republic a third very good mobile shooter under 35, and the fact that they can all be included in the same squad relatively cheaply for the damage they'll be doing is what I have a problem with.
GMA and 4 attacks is the bane of melee squads. While this guy has neither, one of the best ways to combat the GMA+Double+Twin combo was to stick an Uggie or Mouse out infront of an important character, absorbing at least one Twin, or better yet a diplomat in front. Accurate Shot completely negates that tactic, and can be nearly as deadly as GMA+Double+Twin in this situation.
I'm not saying we make him useless, I'm just suggesting we look at it more carefully. I think something as simple as a -2 attack, or -4 attack and -10 damage and Cunning or something else situational would work.
But, I agree, we do need more opinions on this matter. Anyone else have anything to say?
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 12, 2009 12:58:10 GMT -5
Looks pretty spot-on
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 12, 2009 12:59:00 GMT -5
By spot on, what do you mean? Could you please read through BH9 and my debate regarding his power and post your thoughts?
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Post by gwek on Dec 13, 2009 0:41:14 GMT -5
I have to agree with BH on this one. In terms of balance, the last thing the game needs is another awesome and cheap shooter for the Republic.
I understand the desire to model him on Rex, but I think that's similar to the idea of modeling a non-Unique Force-user on the JWM. Both are essentially "best in class," and are nowhere near average for the type of character they represent.
Honestly, for Fordo, I would think the character he should be closest to is, in some way, Argyus. Assuming you want Fordo to be "the ARCs' commander," both are geared toward giving a big bump to a small group of pieces.
In terms of commander effect, Argyus again might be a good model. I'm not sure about the ramifications of giving Twin the the ARC Sniper, but I think something like "Characters whose name contains ARC Trooper gain Twin Attack and Squad Cover" might be more than enough to make ARCs an inviting option, especially when paired with a Jedi commander who can grant Extra Attack.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 13, 2009 10:40:15 GMT -5
Good point on the Argyus connection. Modelling him off Argyus is a very good idea. The Twin Attack thing would be interesting, maybe throw Stealth in there because that seems to be something the ARCs should have. Thoughts, RS?
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 13, 2009 23:00:31 GMT -5
K, here's a rundown between Fordo and Argyus.
Fordo...
-3 points Same HP -3 defense Same Attack Same Damage
Both have Twin -CCF + Mobile Attack + Accurate Shot
Argyus' Twin and CCF to Senate followers and Squad Assault/Firepower to ARC's.
Stats balance each other out (-3 point for -3 defense)
Mobile is interchangeable for CCF (it could be argued that Mobile is better, though)
Accurate Shot is a definitely big add
IMO, Argyus' CE is slightly better than Fordo's (actually, quite a bit better with the pieces that they affect)
So the main factor is Accurate Shot.
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Post by gwek on Dec 14, 2009 0:14:05 GMT -5
I think the main factor is Twin/Mobile, especially when paired with Accurate, ESPECIALLY when paired with Rex.
If these same exact stats worked for another faction, it might not be as big an issue, but they build on a particular strength that the Republic already has in spades.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 14, 2009 13:55:27 GMT -5
Well, what do you propose? Yes, the Republic has a great shooter, but should that prevent us from making a well-represented version of the character? In the past few sets, there have been many measures taken to reduce the power of shooters, so they are already much less deadly.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 14, 2009 14:13:30 GMT -5
I think one of two changes can be made. Either flat out drop Accurate, or lower the attack by two or three points (he'll be hard pressed to hit an enemy in cover with a lower attack). After one of those changes, he's much more balanced, IMO.
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