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Post by Roque Saber on Feb 27, 2010 11:18:00 GMT -5
Well, then I guess the question is, why Reserves at all? Is that just her "gimmick", or is there a reason behind the ability?
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Post by surfrider56 on Feb 27, 2010 16:51:42 GMT -5
Another Question ... all the other Moff's basically have nothing to offer but a CE; Piett and Ozzel have two useful abilities/CE's; why is Daala different? Either give her one CE, not a blaster/troop ability combo, just one CE or Reserves of some type. Since Ozzel has Imp. Reserves 20, either give her the same or Immediate Imp reserves just to be different.
Until she becomes President, should she really be that different than all the other Imp. Admirals/Moff's in her abilities?
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Post by Roque Saber on Feb 27, 2010 16:53:58 GMT -5
THe blaster upgrades were there b/c of her heavy involvement with the Maw Installation (which makes sense). You have a point, but one of your examples, Ozzel, also contradicts to flow. He has both a CE and Reserves, which is what Daala will probably end up like.
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Post by surfrider56 on Feb 27, 2010 17:09:27 GMT -5
THe blaster upgrades were there b/c of her heavy involvement with the Maw Installation (which makes sense). You have a point, but one of your examples, Ozzel, also contradicts to flow. He has both a CE and Reserves, which is what Daala will probably end up like. Thought the Maw question was answered by probably being superweapons ... and since Ozzel has two, Daala should?
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Post by gwek on Feb 27, 2010 18:46:23 GMT -5
I think Blaster Upgrade presents too much of a problem, especially when paired with the commander effect. I again submit the version on the previous page, which largely follows the "structure" we're talking about. I gave her Military Reserves 30 as opposed to Reserves 20 to help differentiate her from Ozzel. She can bring in more points' worth of pieces, but has a smaller selection of the types of pieces she can chose from: Admiral DaalaCost: Faction: Imperial Hit Points: 30Defense: 14Attack: 5Damage: 10 UniqueImperial Military Reserves 30 (If you roll exactly 6 for initiative, you can add up to 30 points of non-Unique Imperial followers without a Force rating to your squad immediately before your first activation of the round) Commander Effect:Non-unique Imperial followers without a Force rating within 6 squares can make 1 immediate attack at +10 damage when they are defeated. COMMENTSAs has been noted, I could see the stats going a little higher, but since they're a relatively minor part of the character (or at least the discussion), I left them as-is for now. With respect to the commander effect, I changed the requirements a bit to mirror Military Reserves. I highlighted the damage in red because I don't know that the Imperials need it. I understand that this CE mirrors Mon Mothma, but the Empire has a number of good damage boosters, so this might be a bit of a problem. As with Mon Mothma, the 6 square limit isn't too much of a limitation, thanks to Mouse Droids and Mas Amedda. I would almost like to add something like "Allies within 6 squares game Karmic Luck (If your initiative check is an odd number, +4 to all this character's rolls for the round; if it is an even number, -4 to all his rolls instead)," which would both reflect Daala's mercurial (and often losing) nature, and might also sort of discourage (or at least balance) the use of Mas and Mouse Droids. I could even see giving her Recon under such circumstances, which creates an interesting conundrum, where if you roll a 6, you have the interesting conundrum of getting Reserves vs taking a -4 penalty for your followers.
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Post by surfrider56 on Feb 27, 2010 19:16:37 GMT -5
I can live with the stats as is; I can see 30 being a sticking point, but in its defense that'll just make her a target a turn earlier than 20 would, so really, how often will she be able to bring people in? Two turns? No more than 3 I bet.
Since she has no "stats" to speak of, cost her at 14 with recon, 11 without.
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Post by fardreamer on Feb 28, 2010 15:35:14 GMT -5
I think Gwek's version is ok. I guess I think she should be spiced up a little. Just because WOTC makes bland Imperial commander doesnt mean we have to. I like the thinking behind Karmic Luck, but not sure about it. I could like it.
Was thinking about adding a way for her to grant Jolt.
That would give her fantastic synergy with the IE Thrawn.
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Post by Dendrite on Feb 28, 2010 21:45:28 GMT -5
I like that version okay, but here's wht I would do to it: -Put Blaster Rifle Upgrade back -Add the Karmic Luck CE in addition to the Death-Shot one -Up her attack to 8, her defense to 18, and her HP to 60 -Lower the Military Reserves (which is a good idea) to 20
Just a few thoughts (that would bring her cost to about 26)
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Mar 1, 2010 22:17:19 GMT -5
I actually like the Karmic Luck CE, but rather than have it as "Allies within 6 squares gain Karmic Luck [blah blah blah]", why not just write out the ability in the commander effect? So, "If your initiative check is an odd number, allies within 6 squares gain +4 attack/to all rolls; if it is an even number, allies within 6 squares get -4 attack/to all rolls instead." However, I also like the vindictive strike CE, and I could go either way with which one we choose. Both would be amazing, though we might have to change up the Reserves dynamic if we go with that route.
On the Military Reserves, I really like the idea, however it seems like an unnecessary custom ability. I am not against such abilities, however it brings back memories of an improved Battle Meditation being struck down on the Joruus thread because it was deemed an "unnecessary custom ability". Why use Military Reserves over normal Reserves if we're limiting new custom abilities. I don't want to accuse anybody of anything, but this sounds awfully close to hypocrisy. I suggest we either swap Military Reserves for normal Reserves here, or we restart the discussion of a new Battle Meditation in the Joruus thread.
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Post by gwek on Mar 1, 2010 22:53:56 GMT -5
I actually like the Karmic Luck CE, but rather than have it as "Allies within 6 squares gain Karmic Luck [blah blah blah]", why not just write out the ability in the commander effect? So, "If your initiative check is an odd number, allies within 6 squares gain +4 attack/to all rolls; if it is an even number, allies within 6 squares get -4 attack/to all rolls instead." However, I also like the vindictive strike CE, and I could go either way with which one we choose. Both would be amazing, though we might have to change up the Reserves dynamic if we go with that route. If we write it out, it creates a different dynamic with certain commander effects, since the bonus/penalty is unnamed, rather than coming from a special ability. I'm not particularly opposed, but wanted to mention it as something to consider. If we go with something like Karmic Luck, that gives us the opportunity to change the definition if we want. For example, rather than odds/even, another option would be win Initiative/lose Initiative, or something... The difference here is that we've already used Military Reserves on Saul Karath, so, yeah, it IS a new ability to the set, but it's going to be in there whether Daala has it or not.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Mar 2, 2010 16:06:30 GMT -5
I originally thought about the potentail for stacking if we don't name the CE as "Allies within 6 gain KL", but I couldn't think of any abusive combos. And I can't see the Imperials getting a CE that gives allies KL in MotF, so I think it should be fine.
While it is true that Saul has the Military Reserves, you[i/] suggested it. Because nobody (including myself) was against it, he was finalized with that ability. And then, later, we go against an improved battle meditation with Joruus because we don't want to make a new custom ability. This was decided without any stats being mentioned for the ability; it was dropped for either one of two reasons or a bit of both of them: We do not want to make unnecessary custom abilites, and/or we are too lazy to think of a good, improved battle meditation. Despite my last post (which, reading it again, seems unnecessarily and unintendedly harsh), I'm not suggesting we DO anything, but I am rather curious as to why we changed our minds on the custom ability issue, from For to Against and back to For.
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Post by gwek on Mar 2, 2010 17:00:53 GMT -5
While it is true that Saul has the Military Reserves, you[i/] suggested it.True enough. And when RS questioned me on why Military Reserves as opposed to regular reserves, I noted that it was slightly different ability with a different tone, and that we were (even at that time) discussing it for Admiral Daala, as well. Basically, it was a new ability that was potentially intended to serve double duty on 2 of our 20 pieces. I think there are two differences here. First, as you say, the ability for Joruus is "improved" Battle Meditation. In other words, dangerously close to looking like "We don't like what WotC did, so we came up with our own." More importantly, after pages of debate, there is still no good suggestion for Improved Battle Meditation or BM2 or whatever. I've never changed my stance on custom abilities. I think they should be used when necessary. I PERSONALLY think a custom ability was needed to get the right feel for Saul Karath (as well as to design a balanced piece that could help both the Old Republic and the Sith). I personally don't think that a custom ability is needed for Joruss C'Baoth. As for Daala: While it's not like I'm going out of my way to look for places to use the new abilities, once we've created a custom ability, it's there. If we can use it on two pieces without looking like we're cribbing from ourselves, so much the better. It is not uncommon for WotC to "premiere" a special ability or Force power on multiple pieces in a single set. Another difference between Joruus and Saul is (as I've already implied) the faction. I don't think I've made it any secret that I favor helping the smaller factions who need it, while I'm often concerned at big power pieces for the big power factions. While that doesn't necessarily translate to "this faction *deserves* a custom ability more than that faction," I will admit that it translates to me being a little looser with the smaller factions. You wouldn't seem me suggestion ideas like I have for Shimmra for a Republic or Imperial piece...
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Post by surfrider56 on Mar 2, 2010 19:07:57 GMT -5
... so the Saul, Joruus, Daala debate on reserves leaves us where... ? I only ask because it started 4 days ago and we seem to have turned this into a debate over new abilities and who gets them ....
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Post by gwek on Mar 2, 2010 21:02:23 GMT -5
This discussion about who gets new abilities goes back a lot more than 4 days. I know were talked about it extensively as early as Darth Zannah, and quite likely before. I also think that the broad discussion about custom abilities ia only one of many factors in each piece's evolution. My personal perspective is that we should limit the number of new abilities as much as possible and also try not to rely on them as crutches. I feel (and have always felt) that if a character merits a new ability, they should get it... but only if we can't replicate it using existing abilities. So where does that leave us? Well, I think it leaves us with Saul Karath (who is already approved) intact and only factoring into the discussion because he would, theoretically, share Military Reserves with Daala. Besides that, we've got two separate discussions. The Joruus C'Baoth one properly belongs in the Joruus thread, but remember that part of that discussion revolves around not only whether he should have a custom ability, but also what that custom ability should be (and lengthy discussion has yet to produce a winning custom ability thus far). For Daala, I think there are multiple factors still in play, and Reserves vs Military Reserves is only one part of the equation. There's also fine-tuning the stats themselves, determining if we want to include Karmic Luck (or some version thereof) in her commander effect, etc. Ultimately, I guess my question with Daala right now would be to ask if we're in agreement to use the version that I posted a few days ago as a starting point or not? If so, that means that, among other things, we're currently laying aside Blaster Upgrade and some other stuff.
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Post by surfrider56 on Mar 2, 2010 23:41:50 GMT -5
For Daala, I think there are multiple factors still in play, and Reserves vs Military Reserves is only one part of the equation. There's also fine-tuning the stats themselves, determining if we want to include Karmic Luck (or some version thereof) in her commander effect, etc. Ultimately, I guess my question with Daala right now would be to ask if we're in agreement to use the version that I posted a few days ago as a starting point or not? If so, that means that, among other things, we're currently laying aside Blaster Upgrade and some other stuff. I agree, lets stick to Daala here ... I think we've definitely left Blaster behind; Military Reserves limits her obviously; is this a good/bad thing? I like the limitation of MR; but I'm not sure I like Karmic for her; I think she gambled on her moves more than relied on luck, but there is no "gambler" ability, unless you want to go to NTMTO, and I Don't think that should apply here. So, if there's no Karma involved, how goes the CE? Leave it as is, or ....? Stats I think are fine as is ...as said, a minor part ....
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