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Gryph
Jun 25, 2010 14:11:14 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Jun 25, 2010 14:11:14 GMT -5
Thematically, it may not seem to fit Gryph, but does the cannon CE fit better with the Bothan Noble? That would be another character who is not focused on attacking. I can't really respond to that, because the Bothan Noble is a generic, not a unique, specific character. Who's to say that the Bothan Noble they had in mind doesn't spend his time ordering around an entourage of soldiers? Well, yes, because he's the ONLY Old Republic character we've got to play with in this set. (Okay, there's also Saul Karath, who has Affinity). Don't forget: this set list wasn't designed by accident. It was voted on, and Gryph was voted in as an Old Republic piece. While an argument can be made that he could be Fringe, for purposes of this project, he's no more Fringe than Han Solo. NLT is an opportunity to address SOME of the inequalities left behind by WotC, and I don't want to shy away from that because of "power level" or "face of the faction." Consider who some of the best commanders in the game are (in terms of gameplay). They're generally NOT Yoda and Vader and other "face of the faction" powerhouses. They're pieces that cost between 15 and 25 points, and are may even be somewhat obscure. Consider such game-changers as General Wedge Antilles, HoloSid, Yomin Carr, and General Rieekan. I would love to give the Old Republic their very own GOWK, but since we can't, why shouldn't they have their own Wedge Antilles or Yomin Carr? I might be inclined to agree with you on defense, if we didn't already have Admiral Saul Karath who--currently--offers Shields to both the Old Rep and the Sith (two factions who can certainly use a defensive ability). I think that another strong defensive ability on top of that would be too much, while still leaving them very weak in other areas. Completely true, and we're addressing as many of those areas as possible, aren't we? We only have 20 pieces, and many of them are from powerful factions, so they're "wasted" on game equalization, but I think we should take every opportunity we can. In terms of tempo control, for example, Cassus Fett offers the Mandos an anti-tempo spoiler ability, and the Yammosk, when paired with enough Vong throwing out Thud bugs, gives the Vong a form of tempo control (comparable to what the Sith can do with Sith Sorcery). Personally, I think the Old Rep need swapping more than any other faction that doesn't have it, and while Gryph might not be the perfect guy to do it, I think he's a better fit than most--and he's really the only game in town. No matter what we do with Gryph, though, I want to make sure he doesn't go to waste.
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Gryph
Jun 25, 2010 15:06:11 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 25, 2010 15:06:11 GMT -5
Thematically, it may not seem to fit Gryph, but does the cannon CE fit better with the Bothan Noble? That would be another character who is not focused on attacking. I can't really respond to that, because the Bothan Noble is a generic, not a unique, specific character. Who's to say that the Bothan Noble they had in mind doesn't spend his time ordering around an entourage of soldiers? He may have a gun and be able to attack, but three things would make a case for him as more of a less combat oriented character. The name, for one. Nobles don't generally lead around a squad of soldiers, or coordinate bodyguards or anything - that is generally left to the most skilled soldier or bodyguard in the group, because the noble has other things to focus on. Further, Heal is obviously an ability not focused around combat. And lastly, the flavour text. It is true that this piece is not Fringe, but would you expect Wizards to give one of the best commander effects in the game to a criminal? Maybe, but I doubt someone as Gryph is more...for lack of a better word, unrefined that the other characters who have swap. I was unclear with what I meant by 'face of the faction'. Characters like Generals Wedge, and Rieekan, HoloSid (although it is arguable that Malak, DLotS is a better commander), and Yomin Carr (although, again, I wouldn't say that he's the best YV commander, I think Nom Anor takes that prize pretty easily) are all trained (or, in the case of HoloSid, just immensely powerful) to lead or coordinate their troops (or pilots or warriors). They are commaders themselves, because they actually command a body of soldiers, and those soldiers follow their orders. They may not be the face of the faction like Yoda or Vader would be, but they are important to their faction. Gryph doesn't really fit that mold. In fact, at one time (correct me if I'm wrong) I remember him actively working against the Republic. He's really not in it for his faction; he's in it for himself. He might help them here and there, and he may even enjoy working with them. But he probably shouldn't have one of the faction's best CEs. That would rest with someone like Revan, or Carth, or Hoth...but of course, none of the three are truly "Lost"...but they might as well be for their impact on the game. I had forgotten about Saul's Afinity, that's a good point. Which brings me to another question (though I don't think it's new): does Gryph even need a CE at all? With Diplomat, Disruptive, and Befuddle, he already gives the OR something no other faction has. Disruptive is a game- and faction-changing ability, and combined with Diplomat and Befuddle he becomes an exceptional character. While these abilities will help those factions mitigate the affects of tempo control when it's used against them, and it may even give them a small advantage in tempo at times (in the case of the YV and Sith), they really don't compare to the tempo control that the Empire, Separatists, Rebels and New Republic enjoy. It helps, but its impact is limited. The OR may need swapping more than any other faction that doesn't currently have it (although that is debatable; the YV, an almost completely melee faction, who have a very low damage output at range, could use it too), I don't think we should just give Gryph a CE just because "the OR needs it". Rather, I think a Disruptive piece with Diplomat and Befuddle would be good. Without a CE, we could even lower his cost a bit, making him more effective. I do agree with you there.
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Gryph
Jun 25, 2010 18:02:05 GMT -5
Post by surfrider56 on Jun 25, 2010 18:02:05 GMT -5
Ok .... since my brain is mush after reading/grading 220 Finals, what are we all saying, in a nutshell for the braindead among us .... no CE? Yes/No Swapping??
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Gryph
Jun 25, 2010 22:42:35 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Jun 25, 2010 22:42:35 GMT -5
Ok .... since my brain is mush after reading/grading 220 Finals, what are we all saying, in a nutshell for the braindead among us .... no CE? Yes/No Swapping?? I don't think we've reached a consensus yet.
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Gryph
Jun 25, 2010 23:18:28 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Jun 25, 2010 23:18:28 GMT -5
He may have a gun and be able to attack, but three things would make a case for him as more of a less combat oriented character. I can't really defend or explain WotC's reason, but will again point out that we're talking apples and oranges, because Gryph is a unique character (and therefore more easily quantified in terms of "feel"). Although I will note that SWM shares a common ancestor with the Star Wars Saga RPG, in which the Noble class is quite adept and "buffing" combatants, giving out bonuses to attack, damage, etc. Also worth noting: the two character classes in Saga that have access to Treat Injury are the Noble and the Soldier. And lets not forget that most of the healers in SWM are actually Jedi warriors, so why NOT a field medic who's also trained to fight? What does "unrefined" have to do with it? Each of the characters with "swap" has a different flavor: Thrawn is a tactical genius. K-3PO has a accumulation of military records to call on. Sidious is clever and scheming beyond belief. Panaka, I suppose, knows how to position is bodyguards to best effect. So why NOT a self-style criminal mastermind who excels and subterfuge and double-cross, who has a repuation for being in surprising an unexpected places? None of that applies to Yomin Carr, who was neither a leader nor important to his faction in any particular way. I think it's a very slippery slope to try to say that commander should be "key" to their factions. Anakin Skywalker and Yoda never joined the Rebel Alliance (or even met any Rebels beyond Luke Skywalker), yet they have 3 commander effects between them. Han Solo in Stormtrooper Armor clearly represents him BEFORE he was a member of the Rebel Alliance (every bit as "Fringe" as Gryph at that point), yet he's allowed to have a commander effect. And clearly the Weequay Leader doesn't know thing one about working with Jedi or Yuuzhan Vong, but he still provides a pretty potent commander effect. I'm sorry, but the idea that Gryph shouldn't offer an Old Republic commander effect because he's of questionable integrity doesn't hold much water (let's not forget that he DID actually have starship crew--admittedly small--working under him, and he was also pivotal to coordination Fringe and Old Republic forces on Taris). As are Han, Lando, Atton Rand, Mira, Durge, Jango Fett, Aurra Sing, and a bunch of other people who've wound up in factions. And about half of the characters I've named have commander effects. The Draay prophecy clearly indicates that Gryph has "chosen to stand in the light." Doesn't stop him from being a criminal, but it does mean that he does do the right thing more often than not. Since we've talked about other characters at particular points in their careers, the same should apply to Gryph. Near the end of the run, he works very consistently with "the good guys," and has performed heroic acts for the Old Republic on more than one occassion (and most of those acts have involved him using deception and trickery, and often "moving his allies around the board", so to speak, in an almost MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE-style way.) That's basically like saying "Wedge shouldn't give the New Republic one of their best commander effects. It should be a Solo or Skywalker." Well, guess what... As I've said before, I'd be happy to trade Befuddle for a commander effect (provided it's the right one). That would allow us to cut one custom ability while simultaneously helping the Old Rep a little more. Does he NEED a commander effect? Not necessarily. One of the reasons he had one was to eliminate potential abuse (since commanders are usually subject to fewer CEs than followers). Does the Old Rep NEED a commander effect? Yeah, I think they do. The Vong, Mandos, and Old Rep are the only factions with access to less than 10 non-Fringe commander effects. Of the three, the Old Rep have the least synergy and the lamest commander effects. If we have the opportunity to help the faction, why can't we do it? Don't define tempo control too narrowly, and don't confuse it with activation control. Although it's a completely different mechanic, the ability to activate a lot of your opponents (as the Vong have with Thudbug/Yammosk or the Sith with Sith Sorcery) can be just as potent as strict activation control, if used properly. As for "comparing" to the larger factions... Unless we're going to start copying everything wholesale, there will always be factions that are better at things and worse at things. My agenda is not to make all factions indentical, but to get them on as close to an even playing field as can be done in 20 pieces. (In some cases, that will seem significant; in others, it's marginal). I'm not advocating giving it to Gryph just beause the Old Rep needs it. I'm advocating doing it because the Old Rep needs it AND I think it's thematically within Gryph's character. As for the Vong... Yes, you're right. Perhaps they do need it more. I was thinking that we'd given them Charging Assault... which we didn't (but perhaps we should).
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Gryph
Jun 26, 2010 9:09:21 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 26, 2010 9:09:21 GMT -5
I'm not going to respond to everything in that post, because we don't seem to get anywhere when we do that.
I will say this: How much is he going to cost, if we give him swap and drop Befuddle?
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Gryph
Jun 26, 2010 11:13:37 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Jun 26, 2010 11:13:37 GMT -5
Danged if I know!
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Gryph
Jun 26, 2010 11:33:56 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 26, 2010 11:33:56 GMT -5
Lol. Okay. I will concede to giving Gryph swap (especially because we can't think of any better options at this point), if these conditions are met:
1) Gryph costs 25 points or more 2) The CE affects allies, and Droids are subject to the effects 3) Everyone else agrees with these conditions
OR Everyone other than myself agrees to giving Gryph swap.
I think I've explained why I would want these conditions in reply #53 on page 4 (at which point I actually wanted him to cost 27+, but I'll lower the cost a bit at this point).
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Gryph
Jun 26, 2010 18:47:23 GMT -5
Post by surfrider56 on Jun 26, 2010 18:47:23 GMT -5
Late to the party, but as I toss in my two cents ... I kinda like Befuddle .....
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Gryph
Jun 28, 2010 17:10:51 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 28, 2010 17:10:51 GMT -5
I wouldn't mind including Befuddle. It would help push his cost up to the levels where I would like it.
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Gryph
Jun 28, 2010 23:48:20 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Jun 28, 2010 23:48:20 GMT -5
I'll go for Gryph in the price range you're looking for if we can get Darth Zannah's cost at 50+ (assuming she keeps Sith Sorcery and a Style Mastery).
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Gryph
Jun 29, 2010 13:46:48 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 29, 2010 13:46:48 GMT -5
Lol. I wouldn't be completely opposed to that, but that's another can of worms. If you want, you could re-open that discussion.
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Gryph
Jun 29, 2010 21:53:40 GMT -5
Post by surfrider56 on Jun 29, 2010 21:53:40 GMT -5
I'll go for Gryph in the price range you're looking for if we can get Darth Zannah's cost at 50+ (assuming she keeps Sith Sorcery and a Style Mastery). As BH said, this would belong in Zannah's thread, but for expediency's sake, what did you have in mind to get her from 48 to 50+?
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Gryph
Jun 29, 2010 22:42:29 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Jun 29, 2010 22:42:29 GMT -5
I don't have anything in mind. I think she's always been underpriced. No piece under 50 should have Sith Sorcery or a Style Mastery. She has both (and, in general, the stats to go with it).
But I digress...
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Gryph
Jun 30, 2010 2:38:48 GMT -5
Post by surfrider56 on Jun 30, 2010 2:38:48 GMT -5
I kinda like Befuddle ..... I wouldn't mind including Befuddle. It would help push his cost up to the levels where I would like it. I'll reinterate ... I still like Befuddle; what else would you Really call what he did to people?
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