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Gryph
May 30, 2010 11:22:45 GMT -5
Post by surfrider56 on May 30, 2010 11:22:45 GMT -5
Update ... Finished gluing head ... painted. I'll stare at it tomorrow to decide if I like the right hand; if I wanted to be fancy, I'd have found some "Hobbit-footed" DDM to make it more complete, but I'll leave farmboys feet as is .... Update 2 ... Needs a second coat, still debating right hand (pics are Very unforgiving on closeups aren't they?) Considering I painted him at midnight, I guess I can't complain; not as much a perfectionist as some at the midnight hour.
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Gryph
May 30, 2010 13:27:03 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on May 30, 2010 13:27:03 GMT -5
Unless we come up with a commander effect that takes up significantly more space, we definitely have room for Rapport. I just noted it the thing that I would cut IF we did cut something. If other people feel like you do, I'm perfectly fine with keeping it. On the one hand, I agree with you about the commander effect. It does cover ground as Lord Hoth--only better. On the other hand, there's precedent for that (cf. Thrawn and Lord Vader; there are probably other examples. And, frankly, Lord Hoth's commander effect is kinda lame. The Old Rep needs all the help it can get--and since these commander effects only impact one piece, I can see a squad that could utilize both effectively. Heck, if anything, post-Hoth, I think we should change "follower" to "ally"! If we go with something different, how about: Droids are subject to this effect: At the end of this character's turn, 2 allies within 6 squares of this character who are the same size may switch positions. I definitely agree that Lord Hoth's CE (among other things on that piece - especially the pathetic attack score) is quite lame, but I would rather have a piece that offers a different effect than movement. While 'double-dipping' so to speak and including both characters would be an interesting option, I think it would be better if we gave an option-starved Old Republic faction something different to work with. While there are some precedents amongst WotC's pieces, this seems to occur more in factions with many more pieces than the OR has (the only one I can think of off the top of my head that could fit this example is Darth Malak, DLotS and Freedon Nadd, but that's kind of a reversal of this situation). Swap is an interesting possibility, but Gryph doesn't seem entirely like a character who would do such a thing. The commanders with swap are cunning tacticians (Thrawn, Sidious) or coordinators (K-3PO). Panaka is interesting because he would use it to protect certain pieces (much like he does in the movies, especially with the decoy queens and such). I'm not entirely sure that Gryph fits one of these molds, but that doesn't mean it's not a possibility. I'm not sure what else to suggest, however. Anyone have any other ideas we could tinker with?
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Gryph
May 30, 2010 19:43:41 GMT -5
Post by gwek on May 30, 2010 19:43:41 GMT -5
In defense of Gryph as a swapper, he's a self-styled criminal mastermind who specializes in deception, disguise, and subterfuge. Many of his plans include the unexpected appearance (or disappearance) of allies (or Gryph himself).
While Gryph is certainly not on par with Sidious or Thrawn, he is DOES often act as a coordinator, moving his allies into position. I think he's as appropriate to the role as K-3PO or Panaka.
In the absence of other options, I'd like to consider him as a swapper. If we come up with something more appropriate, that's cool.
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Gryph
May 30, 2010 22:24:05 GMT -5
Post by Dendrite on May 30, 2010 22:24:05 GMT -5
While Gryph is certainly not on par with Sidious or Thrawn, he is DOES often act as a coordinator, moving his allies into position. I think he's as appropriate to the role as K-3PO or Panaka. In the absence of other options, I'd like to consider him as a swapper. If we come up with something more appropriate, that's cool. Interesting idea...I like it...
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Gryph
May 31, 2010 14:59:04 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on May 31, 2010 14:59:04 GMT -5
While I could see the thematic reasons for him being a swapper (having re-read his Wook page helped), I don't really like the idea of swapping for the OR, unless this piece costs over 30. Gryph is already a very effective piece with Diplomat/Disruptive, in addition to Befuddle. Why make him even more effective by giving him one of the best CEs in the game, and then making it even better by allowing Droids to be swapped?
While I can't think of any solid suggestions for Gryph's CE (some of the members who have read the KotOR comics might be better in that department), beyond some very unconventional CEs I've been tinkering with for some time, I'll ask if he needs a CE at all. He already offers a lot, and a CE will easily push him over 20, and a good one will push him even higher.
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Gryph
May 31, 2010 19:26:31 GMT -5
Post by surfrider56 on May 31, 2010 19:26:31 GMT -5
Diplomat/Disruptive + Befuddle ... Good enough ... Simplify, Simplify ... every Mini doesn't need to be All Things To All Men ....
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Gryph
May 31, 2010 21:01:17 GMT -5
Post by gwek on May 31, 2010 21:01:17 GMT -5
While I could see the thematic reasons for him being a swapper (having re-read his Wook page helped), I don't really like the idea of swapping for the OR, unless this piece costs over 30. Why? Two factions have swappers that are less than 30 points, and the Imps have one at 32 who is, ultimately, more effective. I agree. I was thinking about this earlier in the day and would actually suggest that we get rid of Befuddle. This would "simplify," a bit, and would also cut out one of our custom abilities. One of the reasons I gave him Befuddle initially was because I don't like pieces who do nothing on their activation. With a swapper CE, he now DOES do something. Why NOT make him more effective? The Old Rep need all the help then can get! Since most of their uniques are overpriced, it'd be nice for them to actually have a cost-effective piece! As the Droid thing... I dunno, I was going for a different spin. Why would ANY CE push him over 20, when he already has a CE and is priced below 20?!? As for WHY he has a commander effect... That was an intentional design decision to cut down on the number of CEs that might affect him. The Diplomat/Disruptive combo is enough of a wild card; reducing the ways in which he can be modified seemed like a reasonable idea.
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Gryph
May 31, 2010 21:08:15 GMT -5
Post by gwek on May 31, 2010 21:08:15 GMT -5
Diplomat/Disruptive + Befuddle ... Good enough ... Simplify, Simplify ... every Mini doesn't need to be All Things To All Men .... Rather than cutting a commander effect (and depriving the Old Rep of an excellent opportunity to "catch up"), I'd like to suggest cutting Befuddle. I present the following: GryphCost: 20-ish Faction: Old Republic Hit Points: 40 Defense: 15 Attack: 0 Damage: 0 UniqueDiplomat (If an attacker has line of sight to any enemies without Diplomat, this character is not a legal target and does not count as the nearest enemy, even if adjacent) Disruptive (Suppresses enemy commander effects within 6 squares) Rapport (Characters named Jarael or Zayne Carrick cost 1 less when in the same squad as this character) Commander Effect:Droids are subject to this effect: At the end of this character's turn, 2 followers within 6 squares of this character who are the same size may switch positions. Design Notes: By eliminating Befuddle, we cut one special ability--and a custom one, at that. Overall, the character count also goes down by almost 100, so he should fit very nicely on a card (although Gryph wasn't one we were going to have trouble with anyway). The commander effect is standard swapper language with 2 exceptions: it affect FOLLOWERS rather than all allies (thematically in keeping with Gryph's arrogance) and it affects droids. While I would fight too hard to keep the droid part, I thought it made for an interesting twist (in part inspired by Elbee being part of Gryph's "crew"). The CE could increase the effectiveness of the Old Rep's single droid (the Juggernaut), but since all of the other droids the Old Rep has access to are Fringe, it gives those pieces a very nice (and unique) synergy with the Old Rep that they're not going to get in any other faction.
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Gryph
Jun 1, 2010 15:46:53 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 1, 2010 15:46:53 GMT -5
I can't say I like swap at all. While there are two factions who have swappers that cost less that 30, they were given to the factions by Wizards. Even with the OR, I don't think we should give them a very cheap, not to mention effective (more on that later) swapper.
I wouldnt be opposed to cutting Befuddle.
While I see where you're coming from with the OR being ineffective and such, it's not really because they're uniques are overpriced (most of them are costed quite appropriately, with the exception of a couple KotOR pieces), but because they lack strong CEs as a faction. While swap is definitely a strong CE, and the OR could definitely use it, I don't think we need to hand them a broken piece.
One of the interesting dynamics of swappers is the range limit of the CE. Swapping is obviously most effective in the Imperial and Republic factions, because of Mas. The other factions with swap are much less effective with it because they lack BV for the cross-board deep strike. The commanders with swap are generally quite fragile and are very important to your squad, so bringing them up to the front lines is often not a good idea.
With Gryph, however, it would be much easier to set up a swap than with the Sith or Rebels, because Gryph has Diplomat. He'll be immune to nearly all damage if played correctly, allowing swaps to go on at will. Not nearly as powerful as BV swap, but still much more effective than standard swap.
However, I think a decent compromise would be something like this:
Gryph Cost: 27 Faction: Old Republic Hit Points: 50 Defense: 15 Attack: 0 Damage: 0
Unique Diplomat (If an attacker has line of sight to any enemies without Diplomat, this character is not a legal target and does not count as the nearest enemy, even if adjacent) Disruptive (Suppresses enemy commander effects within 6 squares) Rapport (Characters named Jarael or Zayne Carrick cost 1 less when in the same squad as this character)
Commander Effect: Droids are subject to this effect: At the end of this character's turn, 2 allies within 6 squares of this character who are the same size may switch positions.
I added 10 HP and changed the CE to read allies, because arguably the two best OR uniques (Exile and Nomi) are commanders, and they would benefit greatly from being 'swappable'. I think removing the followers limitation would bump the cost up to almost where I would prefer it be. But I'll concede at high 20s (27+). The higher HP means that almost no single attack will kill him should Diplomat fail to protect him, and at the higher cost he may need it. I'm not opposed to Droids being affected by the CE, in fact I think it's an excellent idea considering the unique synergies. As long as he's costed appropriately.
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Gryph
Jun 1, 2010 20:39:47 GMT -5
Post by surfrider56 on Jun 1, 2010 20:39:47 GMT -5
Whoa, wait a sec ... I think we're getting carried away here ...
Exactly who the heck IS Gryph? What "Powers and Abilities" does he possess?
He's a liar, a con artist, a thief, and a .... well that's it, which is my point. He's a nobody who happens to be at the wrong place at the right time and vice a versa; he may have friends who have powers and abilities, but lets not get carried away. C'mon, 20-27 pts???
Of all the mini's in the WOTC world, who's he closet to in concept? Jar Jar! The ability to screw somebody else up is his best and truthfully only ability. The fact that he even Has a CE is pushing it.
Jar Jar has Draw Fire, Bombad Gungan, and costs 18 with slighty better HP/Defensive numbers ...
Gryph has, as of now, Befuddle (closest to Bombad) Disruptive, and Diplomat ... extra ability, slighty less numbers and costed at 16.
You Can't make Gryph better than Jarhead ... they're the same character in slightly different conceptual form.
Gw, I know you want to make OR better than it is, but Gryph isn't the answer.
... and I don't see Swap as an ability he should have. Might as well give him BM for all the crap he convinces people to do ... wait that's a FP ... double wait, lets make him Force Sensitive ... Triple wait let's give him ........................................................
Sorry for the sarcasm .... got carried away, but I hope I've made my point. Gryph is an "ordinary" huckster at the least, and a Very Lucky huckster at best.
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Gryph
Jun 1, 2010 21:48:51 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Jun 1, 2010 21:48:51 GMT -5
Gryph is not remotely similar to Jar Jar.
Honestly, if there's any parallel, it's probably Lando.
But that's neither here nor there. Each mini is a reflection of both the character AND a collection of stats. Those stats are often somewhat loose approximations of the way they characters typically appear. Take Yomin Carr, for example. His mini bears very little resemblence to the character as actually presented... but he's just what the Vong needed at the time, and he's just close enough that you can forgive the difference if you squint.
When Han Solo dressed up in Stormtrooper armor, did he really give his followers the ability to charge and fire. Nope, not at all. And, on the point we're talking about here: do character like Panaka and K-3PO "deserve" swapping any more than Gryph? Certainly not. Of the three, Gryph is by far the most worthy. K-3PO is a possibility, but a much, much lesser character (in that he was NOT one of the main characters of a very popular comic that run for 4+ years).
Now, as I said earlier, I'm not totally stuck on the swapping thing, but if we can't come up with something better, I think it's a decent fit for the character, and a VERY good thing for the faction. One of the goals of this project has been give representation to all ten factions, and one of the themes from the start has been to help the minor factions as much as possible. Since Gryph is now the only legitimate option to help the Old Rep, he WILL help them. No way around that.
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Gryph
Jun 24, 2010 0:07:17 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 24, 2010 0:07:17 GMT -5
I don't necessarily disagree with either of you, but I think we should stay away from swapping, or anything dealing with movement, if we can. When a link to the stats we had was posted on Bloo Milk, one of the most accurate things I read was that a lot of the characters had CEs, and a lot of them had to do with movement.
Rather than swap, we could go with a cannon-type CE, similar to what we originally had. But rather than giving movement, we could word it like this:
(Droids are subject to this effect?)At the end of this character's turn, 1 (Old Republic) follower (or ally?) can make 1 immediate attack or use an ability that replaces attacks.
The last part allows for something different from the other cannon CEs, but it still keeps the typical cannon alive. I think we should make Droids subject to the effect too, if we decide to go with this CE, because it would help out the Juggernauts a lot.
Thoughts?
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Gryph
Jun 24, 2010 9:43:26 GMT -5
Post by Dendrite on Jun 24, 2010 9:43:26 GMT -5
It could work...
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Gryph
Jun 25, 2010 0:28:18 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Jun 25, 2010 0:28:18 GMT -5
My concern with this is two-fold.
First, thematically, it doesn't really fit Gryph. He's not about attacking. He's specifically about NOT attacking. He's about deceit and deception, and trying not to have to throw a punch if it can be avoided.
Second, strategically and mechanically, I'm not sure how much it really helps the Old Rep. I think the Old Rep DOES need a movement breaker of some kind (beyond the lame one offered by Lord Hoth). The majority of their powerful pieces are melee (20 of 33 Old Rep pieces total are melee), which means they're generally going to have a problem getting to the fight. The Old Rep is the only melee-heavy faction that doesn't have some kind of legitimate movement breaker and/or defensive option to help them survive to adjacency.
It's true that there are a few pieces that could benefit from a "cannon effect" CE, but most of them have pretty low defensive capability, so the benefit would be very limited, I think.
BH, you note that there was a comment on bloomilk that a lot of the CEs were movement-related. My response to that is "Um, yeah, so?" To some extent, we're trying to use TNL20 as an "equalizer", aren't we? Certain factions are very handicapped in the movement department, so I think it's only natural that we would try to fill that void a little.
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Gryph
Jun 25, 2010 11:28:12 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 25, 2010 11:28:12 GMT -5
Thematically, it may not seem to fit Gryph, but does the cannon CE fit better with the Bothan Noble? That would be another character who is not focused on attacking.
Also, you make references to the NLT being designed around balancing out the factions. While this is a great goal, is Gryph really the character to make the OR a playable faction? I really don't think so, especially because a case could be made for him as a Fringe character in addition to an OR character, and that his power level is significantly below that of the characters that are the "face" of the OR (ex. Revan, Hoth, the Exile, Nomi, Thon, etc.).
I do agree that a cannon CE may not be the most effective CE the OR could get, though. I also do not think that swapping is the best CE either. Rather than movement, I think we should go with the other thing the OR lacks - defense. Granting allies an ability like Advantageous Cover would help the OR to a high degree. However, we already have a commander in the NLT that grants Adv Cover (Alto Stratus), so we should come up with something else, if we want to go the defense route. Evade is pretty much out of the question. Anyone have any ideas?
While a lot of factions are lacking in the movement department, there are a lot of factions that are lacking in many other departments too. Defense, tempo control, etc.
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