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Post by gwek on May 3, 2010 13:34:35 GMT -5
I think you know what my refrain will be: looks like amateur hour.
Unfortunately, I think we need to revisit the stats. I'd rather we not keep trying to find ways to cheat the card to work. We're already straining the lines of credibility on this one.
Do want to keep chopping away at what we have, use our current stats as a starting point, or start over from scratch? I'm okay with any approach, but I think we need to agree on on overall re-starting point for the conversation.
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Post by Roque Saber on May 3, 2010 15:19:46 GMT -5
You even think what TLT is amateur? I thought it was smart. Playability wise, I don't know anyone who actually references the card for the ability text, they go straight to the glossary in the rule book. But that probably won't sway you. Either way, I think we should, if anything, redo the Talisman. It is a good idea, but I think it's too complex as it is.
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Post by gwek on May 3, 2010 16:01:13 GMT -5
In retrospect, yes, some of the LTL cards look unprofessional compared with the WotC cards (both the layout and the content). It's not intended as a slight against the folk who did TLT (who are, in general, better than I am at customization), but even the best artists produce substandard work from time to time.
And you're right" "I don't know anyone who actually references the card" means absolutely nothing to me. As I've stated time and time again, if we want to look professional, we need to use WotC's guidelines to the best of our ability.
I'm not opposed to re-doing the Muur Talisman, but we need to look at the character as a whole. To some extent, for example, the Force powers that CM has are determined by the definition of the Muur Talisman.
If we want to streamline her, one option would be to remove Muur Talisman and replace it with Rakghoul Disease. If we do that, I would recommend also dropping either Force Repulse or Dark Temptation.
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Post by surfrider56 on May 3, 2010 16:55:24 GMT -5
At the risk of opening up a store, never mind that can, of worms, maybe we need to streamline/review every character to make it possible to have a uniform consistancy with the cards ... and therefore achieve a more "professional" look and feel to them.
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Post by gwek on May 3, 2010 19:28:53 GMT -5
Well, the issue here is that a few of the characters simply don't fit on the cards, so they really need to be looked at.
That aside, though, I would not object to temporarily re-opening all threads (either simultaneously or in stages) to see if people are still content with what we've got, post MotF.
I would support that plan, though, only if it were done relatively quickly (eg, the whole process doesn't take more than 2-3 weeks).
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Post by Roque Saber on May 3, 2010 20:49:12 GMT -5
So here's what we have: An easy fix is to drop Lightning. Dunno if that's whats best for the character, but it's a possibility.
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Post by surfrider56 on May 3, 2010 21:10:30 GMT -5
So here's what we have: An easy fix is to drop Lightning. Dunno if that's whats best for the character, but it's a possibility. My latest rant of course is the # of lines. Celeste has 26. Removing Lightning only takes out two lines. If you look at the card on the screen, its hard to read; imagine that being a real card, twice as small ......
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Post by Roque Saber on May 4, 2010 10:40:35 GMT -5
Ya. So a huge chunk is taken up in the CE and in the Muur Talisman. That's probably where we should focus our attention, either rework them or make them use a lot less words.
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Post by gwek on May 4, 2010 11:11:24 GMT -5
We can fiddle, but remember that it took weeks of discussion to get to the definition we have now.
Consider also that while Muur Talisman takes 6 lines, the CE is only 3. Dark Temptation and Force Repulse are 4 lines each (and, if adjusted to a larger font, will almost immediately bump to another line, which will not happen with the Muur Talisman or the CE).
I would suggest the following:
1-Cut Force Lightning. 2-Cut Dark Temptation. 3-Evaluate if there's a way to re-phrase Muur Talisman and the commander effect to see if we can shorten them.
Based on those three changes, how would the piece look?
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Post by surfrider56 on May 4, 2010 21:09:37 GMT -5
I actually only cut Lightning & DT on this one .... Seems to be better ...... what we now of course need to do is adjust the cost .....
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Post by xpraider on May 4, 2010 21:12:49 GMT -5
I think that would go a long way. I kind of see now why there were so many versions of Vader out there (other than popularity). It just wasn't practical to have a Vader with everything on it.
So, yeah, remove DT, drop FL (as these abilities really didn't come into play until after she ended up in the Dark Times era), and see if we can rework the Talisman to something similar, but simpler.
Now, what I'm going to propose is not going to be perfect, but I think may work (but to be honest it won't fit with what people have been working for) and will probably be the most basic way of doing it.
So, Drop DT, Drop Lightning. From here we have 2 options.
Change the Muur Talisman to this:
Muur Talisman (Whenever this character defeats a living enemy without a Force Rating, you can immediately add a character named Rakghoul to your squad. The new character sets up in a square that enemy formerly occupied).
or Change it to this:
Muur Talisman (Whenever this character defeats a living enemy without a Force Rating, you can immediately add a character named Muur Rakghoul to your squad. The new character sets up in a square that enemy formerly occupied).
If we do the first version, we are doing the most simple version, which should simplify things a bit and hopeful keep down the amount of text on the card, but if we do it like this it doesn't really add any of the complexity that the Raks Celeste made had.
If we do the 2nd version, than we are making it a bit more complex, but only by transferring the complexity to another character, which should make it possible to give the Raks the abilities we want them to have, without having Celeste's card getting clogged.
And while I know GWEK doesn't like the idea of Celeste removing Savage from the Raks, I think simply having her remove Savage from the Raks (and just the Raks) and giving them a bonus, both simplifies and still somewhat represents what she is doing to the Raks with the Talisman.
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Post by surfrider56 on May 4, 2010 21:17:08 GMT -5
X, if you look at the new card, I was able to keep the CE as is and not touch Muir at all; it looks a lot cleaner without Lightning and DT.
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Post by xpraider on May 5, 2010 0:07:39 GMT -5
Yeah. I think you posted it while I was writing that post up.
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Post by surfrider56 on May 6, 2010 22:26:05 GMT -5
Card looking better?
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Post by Roque Saber on May 7, 2010 11:00:37 GMT -5
If we keep these changes, her cost will have to be adjusted a lot. Lightning and Dark Temptation were both key powers that defined her role as a character (in game). IMO, she should only be around mid to high 30's now, maybe less.
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