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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 14, 2009 21:23:47 GMT -5
OK here is a start to Celeste Morne, I grabbed a decent amount of info on her and tried to find something to help Rakghouls out a bit. And here she is.
Celeste Morne (Fringe) Cost 46 HP 120 Def 20 Attack 12 Dmg 20
Unique, Melee Attack, Twin Attack Sith Hatred (+10 Dmg against sith characters) Rakghoul Immunity-immune to Rakghoul Disease Empathy Rakghoul Plague/Muur Talisman-non unique enemies who are within 4 squares of Celeste Morne must roll a save of either 11 or 16 each time they activate( not sure which yet) if they fail they are defeated and become Rakghouls controlled by Celeste Morne. Force users are not subject to this ability.
Force Powers Force 1 Renewal 1 Force Cloak 2 Force Stun 1 Force Push 2 Lightsaber Block 1
Commander Effect: Rakghouls are subject to this effect, Rakghouls gain Momentum.
Ok I know she isn't perfect but let me explain as best as I can on all aspects.
1. Twin attack allows her to do up to 40 dmg or 60 to sith in one activation
2. Obviously she is immune to Rakghouls based on her story.
3. Empathy combined with her CE will allow control of Rakghouls and give them an added damage bonus which is somewhat needed.
4. I know her starting force is low, but that is for a reason, she starts off in her story not completely strong but eventually gets to that point especially after she bonds with Karness Muur.
5. She definately used Cloak, Push, Block, and Stun so thus the reason for all 4
Ok now I shall let the pros tear her apart...
Thoughts?
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Post by generalgrevious on Dec 15, 2009 8:47:05 GMT -5
For that Plague ability it would have to be at most a save of 6, and maybe lower to to adjacent not within 4, for two reasons. 1. 4 is just a weird number and I don't think wizards has anything with that range. 2. Being able to kill ANY non-force user on their activation is crazy enough.
I don't know much about it but maybe instead of turning someone into a Rakghoul it could boost the Rakghoul disease. (Maybe like +20 damage instead of +10)
Also for the commander effect it should be
Allies with Savage are subject to this effect. Rakghouls gain Momentum.
Other thank that I think she is good.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 15, 2009 8:55:10 GMT -5
Yea you are probably right, I was just thinking back on the comic, basically wherever she was, everyone turned into Rakghouls. I still think adjacent isn't enough though. What about 2 squares away? Should we then give her Rakghoul Disease 20? I didn't want to give her that because she doesn't give out the disease she controls the very existence of it. Save 6 works and the all of the peons can die, plus force users are immune to it anyway so that limits.
Oh that reminds me, droids are not subject to it either...
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Post by gwek on Dec 15, 2009 10:59:58 GMT -5
Celeste is a tricky character. I think we need a little more feedback on her from other folks.
I want to take a closer look at what we have so far before I comment myself.
I think she's a character where it's going to be very tough to walk the line between accurate and playable/balanced.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 15, 2009 11:52:17 GMT -5
Yes it will be a difficult line to draw, I see us dropping force powers in order to allow for something related to the Talisman.
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Post by gwek on Dec 15, 2009 13:52:51 GMT -5
Agreed. We need to make sure she can fit on the card!
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 15, 2009 14:57:43 GMT -5
Maybe we could do something like this for Muur Talisman:
Replaces Turn: All non-unique enemies without a force rating within 2 squares are considered activated. Each must also roll a save of 6. On a failure, that character is considerd defeated and is replaced with a Rakghoul under the opposing squad's control.
Now how to word it so it fits...?
Also, I like empathy, but Rakghoul Immunity seems a little too specific for what it does...(though we may get ideas from the new Dark Times Chewbacca, but he won't be out for a while)...anyway, perhaps its not needed.
Sith hatred as well we may want to simply make Jedi Hunter EDIT: 'Course, on second thought, +4/10 against a faction isn't unheard of after all...(Squint)
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Post by gwek on Dec 15, 2009 15:16:39 GMT -5
I agree with most of what Dendrite says. If we make the Talisman a passive ability, she's going to be too powerful. I think that an active ability (or even Force power) like Dendrite has detailed is a good idea. I think it may need to be modified further (unless we want to make Celeste the most expensive Fringe piece ever made), but it's definitely a good start. I think Empathy can be dropped. Empathy is for all savage creatures, but interacts exclusively with Rakghouls. I would change Sith Hatred to Jedi Hunter. For that matter, I would probably drop it altogether. I can see how it might be appropriate, but it's just going to clutter up the card. In terms of commander effect, I would stay away from Momentum, because it's a bit too similar to Exar Kun's dynamic. One thing to remember is that when Celeste turned people into Raks, as long as they were under her command they maintained some of their capability, if not their personality. Consequently, I think her commander effect might be something like this (alternately, this could be a special ability): Creatures with Savage are subject to these commander effects. Allies within 6 squares gain Rakghoul Disease and Savage. Allies with Rakghoul gain .I think Celeste herself should have Rakghoul Disease, as well. On Twin vs Double: I think we should go with Double. Twin is typically for a "better" combatant, and while Celeste was pretty handy with the lightsaber, she's going to be build around Rakghoul Disease... which means making the rest of her as simple as possible. Similarly, regardless of what we've seen her use, she should probably have no more than 2 Force powers (unless the Talisman is a Force power itself). Minis are "shorthand" versions of their actual selves, so they don't necessarily need to have every ability they've ever demonstrated (otherwise, Han, Luke, and Leia would all cost 100+ points!).
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 15, 2009 15:47:10 GMT -5
I agree with gwek. That CE you suggested is really interesting, though I don't know how effective it would be if all allies within 6 had Savage. The idea is very interesting, but I think those allies who get Savage should get something in addition to the Rak Disease (Ambush or Extra Attack maybe?).
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Post by gwek on Dec 15, 2009 16:09:23 GMT -5
Well, that's what the is there for. I figured they should get something, but I don't know what.
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 15, 2009 16:19:49 GMT -5
Twin Attack, Paralysis, and Cleave come to mind. Maybe even Melee Reach 2?
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Post by gwek on Dec 15, 2009 16:23:56 GMT -5
Keep in mind hat if we give something to those with Rak Disease, it could go on ANY piece, and that piece could then have Savage taken away by Empathy, so we need to be VERY careful what we give them.
Twin Attack is out of the question. Celeste Morne with Jedi Exile (or another character who gives Extra Attack + Empathy) = Rakghouls that Quadruple Twin attack.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 15, 2009 16:33:51 GMT -5
Ok so drop twin and give her double. But why not keep Sith Hatred? Jedi Hunter and Mando hunter already exist. What if her commander effect is Rakghouls gain Charging Assault, Mighty Swing or Cleave. Muur Talisman, replaces turn non-unique non force users, non droids are considered activated save 6 and are defeated and change into rakghouls. Ugh too long but that is what it is, its what it does, its who it affects. There maybe no way to shorten it.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 15, 2009 17:05:12 GMT -5
Well, that's what the is there for. I figured they should get something, but I don't know what. Well, it said allies with Rakghoul gain , so I thought it was just for the normal Raks. Anyways, giving all the Raks Paralysis is intersting, Cleave even more so. I'm not sure what to suggest. Oh, and I think Sith Hatred should be dropped because: 1. Abilities like it aren't really that "fun". While it would fit and is canonical, it is one of those things that doesn't translate well into SWM (Mando Hunter falls into this same category, the fact that WotC used it once shouldn't be an excuse for a new ability used against a different faction, IMO). And 2. There's an Force power already with the name of Sith Hatred (and Sith Hunter wouldn't reall fit her).
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 15, 2009 17:38:30 GMT -5
Let's see if we can refine this Talisman idea, since it's probably to most essential part of this piece. Once we can figure it out, the rest of the piece will be relatively simple.
So, I think we've decided that it should be an SA that either replaces attacks or turn, effects only non-uniques, and possibly requires a save.
Lets start with something like:
Muur Talisman: (Replaces turn: non-unique living enemies within 6 (?) squares are immediately defeated and replaced with Rakghouls under this character's control; Large and larger figures ignore this effect; save 6)
The biggest concerns are 1) the range, 2) the save, and 3) whether or not it's all non-uniques (medium and smaller of course). It could be pretty nasty to lose your Jensaari Defender or JWM just like that.
Also, if she has a CE, I feel pretty confident that it should include: Allied Rakghouls lose Savage. If you take a look at the Rak article on Wookieepedia, the Rak's formed by the Taliman weren't the beastly kind that roam Taris. They actually retain their abilities and can use weapons, etc.
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