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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 23, 2009 19:26:28 GMT -5
He is not much of a commander, he was more of a follower with Aayla and Quin as fellow semi-apprentice like followers. How about no CE, and a SA called "Jedi Shroud" characters with a force rating and stealth gain Cloaked, while within 6 squares of Tholme.
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Post by gwek on Dec 23, 2009 22:30:51 GMT -5
Non-unique is the big thing though. You can field a horde of pieces, not just one. As I've already noted more than once, the second part of his commander effect currently can be used for GenoHaradan Assassins (non-Unique). Honestly, Cloaked was only introduced a few sets ago. We're certain to see more of it in the future. Wouldn't that be the same set the the ARC Trooper (one of only 2 pieces that Fordo affects) comes from? The fact that Tholme might breath some new life into two old and rarely used pieces should count in his FAVOR, not against him! You're forgetting Juhani, who costs 25. If we price Tholme in the low 40s (for example), that's 65-70 points to have two decent Jedi who have Cloaked and Intuition (or a simulation therefore). There's still room to add more pieces, and this is comparable to many of the high end-commanders. I don't see the problem with a commander effect geared around small squad tactics in a skirmish game. And that's exactly why I'm pushing so hard for something a little bit different for the Republic. They don't NEED another broad-based commander effect. They've got plenty of them. The Republic (along with the Rebels and Imperials) are so powerful that we can play with new ideas without having to worry if we're selling the faction short. We can't, because WotC has done such a good job building them up. As I've said before, what I'm trying to do with Tholme is bring a new and interesting (and character-appropriate) twist to a massively powerful faction. The Republic doesn't need more power, but they can use more interesting options. Just because it's not competitive doesn't make it a blunder. Not everything has to be geared toward tier 1 competition. Hondo's commander effect, like so many others (in fact, like Tholme's) is designed to suggest certain types of squads and certain synergies. That doesn' make it a blunder at all. That makes it a "fun" commander effect (for lack of a better term) than a "power" commander effect. Now that I see you refer to Hondo's CE as a "blunder" though, I understand a little better why you're so opposed to Tholme's. You want to optimize him, while I want a piece that suggests certain ideas and themes for squad-building. Well ya, Jabba was in the first set, Tholme is not.[/quote] You are correct, but Tholme is built around a power (Cloaked) that is relatively new. Specifically, Jabba is a good example of a character with a commander effect geared primarily toward maximizing Uniques. A non-Unique Bounty Hunter was introduced in Clone Strike (set 2). but other than that, it wasn't until Bounty Hunters (set 6) that Jabba had more than one non-Unique to assist. No worries about being so argumentative (clearly, I'm okay with the concept...). I could, however, counter your argument by saying "I don't want to have to force myself to play ARCS just so I can make use of Fordo's CE." And, sure, they might be non-Unique, but there are only 2 options (one very sub-par, these days), compared to the 9 pieces that can currently benefit from Tholme (and that's not including the 39 pieces, ranging in cost from 4 to 54, who can benefit when Light Tutored).
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 24, 2009 0:00:52 GMT -5
Haha! Maybe our argumentativity (wow, big word!) is a blessing for this project. We won't let anything that doesn't meet our very different creiteria through, resulting in even better pieces. What do you mean "certain ideas and themes for squad building"? Ooh, burn...burn. But I think there's a slight difference. All Fordo is seen leading are ARC's, while Tholme isn't really seen leading anything (though he does have strong ties to stealthy approches). So then. Tholme will be more a characterful, flavorful piece as opposed to a faction booster. I'm fine with that, we just have to find a way to best represent that flavor in (if he does end up having one) his CE.
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Post by xpraider on Dec 24, 2009 14:54:10 GMT -5
I believe the suggestion was already made to not make him a commander. I kind of agree with that. While he did train Quin and Aayla, I never got the sense that he was really a general, but more of the most senior espionage character.
In fact, as I remember the Republic Comics, a lot f what he did was survive, infiltrate and cause havoc. While I'm iffy on giving it to a Republic character, I think Tholme might be the most appropriate piece in the Republic to give Disruptive.
I think Cloak, Surprise Move/Intuition, Avoid Defeat, and Disruptive might be a way for him to be more representative of what he was.
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 24, 2009 15:40:29 GMT -5
Perhaps we could go so far as to put Intuition and Surprise Move?
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Post by gwek on Dec 24, 2009 21:57:52 GMT -5
What I meant was that if you want to maximize characters, certain ones will work well together. For example, if you want to use Fordo to get the most bang for your buck, obviously, you'll want an ARC-themed squad. For Exar Kun, you probably want savage pieces. Here, I'm looking at "stealthy Jedi and assassin types." Ooh, burn...burn. But I think there's a slight difference. All Fordo is seen leading are ARC's, while Tholme isn't really seen leading anything (though he does have strong ties to stealthy approches). Tholme is very much a behind-the-scenes leader, he's a spymaster and mastermind. One could argue that he's actually the closest thing the Jedi have to someone who things like Sidious. While it's true that he's very rarely seen actually leading troops into combat, in the Republic comic, he's often involved in (if not directing) major decisions from behind the scenes. For comparison, we never see Dodonna, or Rieekan, or Rebel-era Yoda take the field... yet all of them have commander effects.
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Post by gwek on Dec 24, 2009 22:00:42 GMT -5
I believe the suggestion was already made to not make him a commander. I kind of agree with that. While he did train Quin and Aayla, I never got the sense that he was really a general, but more of the most senior espionage character. Does one need to be a general to have a commander effect? Nah. Nomi Sunrider certainly wasn't a general, not was Kyle Katarn. They were just Jedi who were good at what they did, and could sometimes take the lead. Interesting idea.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 25, 2009 0:21:18 GMT -5
Disruptive seems like a very open idea, it suits his character. Actually, we see both Dodonna and Rieekan lead. Yoda not so much...but hey, he's a muppet... And true, he was a kind of behind the scene's leader, but I think he was more of the loner type. That would be interesting, Loner and Disruptive on a Cloaked piece....
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 25, 2009 9:54:28 GMT -5
OOh I really like this Loner, combo with Cloaked and Disruptive, makes you want to kill him faster too
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Post by xpraider on Dec 28, 2009 4:35:12 GMT -5
What I meant was that if you want to maximize characters, certain ones will work well together. For example, if you want to use Fordo to get the most bang for your buck, obviously, you'll want an ARC-themed squad. For Exar Kun, you probably want savage pieces. Here, I'm looking at "stealthy Jedi and assassin types." Ooh, burn...burn. But I think there's a slight difference. All Fordo is seen leading are ARC's, while Tholme isn't really seen leading anything (though he does have strong ties to stealthy approches). Tholme is very much a behind-the-scenes leader, he's a spymaster and mastermind. One could argue that he's actually the closest thing the Jedi have to someone who things like Sidious. While it's true that he's very rarely seen actually leading troops into combat, in the Republic comic, he's often involved in (if not directing) major decisions from behind the scenes. For comparison, we never see Dodonna, or Rieekan, or Rebel-era Yoda take the field... yet all of them have commander effects. We've also seen several Jedi who were commanders and in fact Members of the high jedi council have been made without CEs, and even Shaak Ti from FU when she was leading the Felucians did not have a CE. Now if someone can think of one that works and makes sense I have no problem with it, but I'd like to try and make him effective and show his more espionage nature, and I don't think he needs a CE to show that, and I'm not going to get hung up on him having one.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 28, 2009 9:18:17 GMT -5
What about Espionage? Its an abilty for a NR character named Winter that we just finished at Dark Side Comics. Espionage (during setup, after seeing your opponents squad, you may choose one enemy CE, for the rest of the skirmish this character gains that CE
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Post by gwek on Dec 28, 2009 10:46:03 GMT -5
I don't think I want the Republic to have that...
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 28, 2009 23:07:07 GMT -5
True True
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Post by gwek on Jan 4, 2010 14:34:53 GMT -5
Bump.
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Post by Dendrite on Jan 14, 2010 21:20:39 GMT -5
Bump
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