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Post by Dendrite on Dec 14, 2009 17:26:32 GMT -5
Master Tholme - Republic - 43 pts
HP: 110 DEF: 20 ATT: 12 DA: 20
-Unique -Melee Attack -Double Attack -Stealth -Avoid Defeat -Deceptive
Force 5 -Illusion -Jedi Mind Trick -Force Alter
CE: Allies with a force rating within 6 sqaures gain Deceptive
While I gave him some decent offensive capabilities, I designed him to be more of his "cunning planner" and espionage type of person. Also illusion and avoid defeat since he's always faking his own death and such.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 14, 2009 19:26:34 GMT -5
Looks pretty good from a minis standpoint, and very balanced. Whether or not is represents the character well, I wouldn't know. Someone else will have to help with that.
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Post by gwek on Dec 14, 2009 21:17:19 GMT -5
I want to check his Wookieepedia page, and possibly some of my comic collection, but I sort of figured Force Cloak and Avoid Defeat (although what Dendrite has done seems to depict him pretty well otherwise).
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 16, 2009 20:32:38 GMT -5
Very canon for sure, the only thing I was thinking of was either Parry or Riposte because he was able to survive against both Sora Bulq and Count Dooku, best swordsman of the time.
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Post by gwek on Dec 16, 2009 23:02:45 GMT -5
I checked Wookieepedia to remind myself of his exploits. The page notes that his lightsaber skills is inconsistent in depiction, and he often relies on trickery to win/escape. I think this could be represented by slightly diminished stat paired with Cunning Attack. Using Dendrite's stats as a starting point: TholmeCost: Faction: Republic Hit Points: 100 Defense: 19 Attack: 10 Damage: 20 UniqueMelee Attack, Double AttackAvoid Defeat (Whenever this character would be defeated, make 2 saves, each needing 11; if both succeed, this character has 10 Hit Points instead of being defeated) Cloaked (If this character has cover, he cannot be targeted by nonadjacent enemies.) Cunning Attack (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against an enemy who has not activated this round) Force 5; Master of the Force 2Force Alter (Force 1: range 6; any 1 enemy rerolls its last attack) Jedi Mind Trick (Force 1, usable only on this character's turn: range 2; target living enemy is considered activated this round and cannot make attacks of opportunity this turn; save 11) Commander Effect:Allies with a Force rating with Stealth gain Cloaked. Once per round, after initiative is determined, 1 ally with Cloaked can immediately move up to its Speed before any other character activates.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 17, 2009 0:35:45 GMT -5
Woa! That's one powerful CE! JWM's with Stealth and Cloaked? Might as well hand them GMA as well. Besides the CE, I think that's a pretty good set of stats to build from. As we saw with Vodo, a fixed amount of Force with MotF is a bad idea, it just isn't a good combo. It says on the 'Pedia that he resorting to Deception in duels and "survived" his encounters with Bulq and Dooku. Deception seems more on the lines of Opportunist than Cunning to me. I think an very intersting combination would be to give him something along the lines of: Lightsaber Duelist (with a lower base defense, 18 maybe) Lightsaber Block (probably with Renewal) Maybe Lightsaber Riposte Opportunist Duelist and block would hopefully allow him to "survive" an attack and then strike back with Opportunist-enhanced attacks. It's a combo Wizards tried to put on Sazen, but they didn't give enough buck to be worth the risk. As for a CE, does he need one? If he absolutely must, I'm thinking something like followers (and himself) not provoking AoO's to show his Anzati skills.
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Post by gwek on Dec 17, 2009 2:24:31 GMT -5
Woa! That's one powerful CE! JWM's with Stealth and Cloaked? Might as well hand them GMA as well. You realizes that it REQUIRES Stealth, right? There are only 5 Jedi it currently affects. Really? When did we see that? I think Vodo is a pretty well-designed piece. In this case, Tholme's ability to use Mind Trick and/or Alter twice could be the difference in shutting down an opponent entirely and living to fight another day--an accurate reflection of the character, I think. Ah, the dangers of Wookieepedia! Although his entry spends a lot of time commenting on his combat prowess, using a lightsaber is only one very small part of his character. He was a stealthy infiltrator and a master spy. I think building him around the fact that he survived a fight with Dooku (which is not one of his most memorable scenes) would not be the strongest way to go with him. Personally, I think he merits a commander effect, as the head spymaster for the Jedi Order.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 18, 2009 0:12:14 GMT -5
You realizes that it REQUIRES Stealth, right? There are only 5 Jedi it currently affects. Woops, I thought it said "Allies with a force rating gain Stealth and Cloaked. In that case, it's a little odd. As you said, there's only 5 pieces it affects, so in some cases, it might be more limiting that useful. Perhaps something along the lines of enhancing allies with Stealth, like they don't provoke AoO or they gain speed 8, etc. Really? When did we see that? I think Vodo is a pretty well-designed piece. Maybe "well designed" but not competetive. He's got a measly 7.5 rating on BlooMilk. It's just a bad combo. For Vodo is doesn't matter quite as much since you're usually sending him in to die anyway. In this case, Tholme's ability to use Mind Trick and/or Alter twice could be the difference in shutting down an opponent entirely and living to fight another day--an accurate reflection of the character, I think. I'm not saying MotF 2 is bad, it's the lack of renewal that makes it so strange. He'll only be able to pull that off once or twice if he doesn't use his force anywhere else. Ah, the dangers of Wookieepedia! Although his entry spends a lot of time commenting on his combat prowess, using a lightsaber is only one very small part of his character. He was a stealthy infiltrator and a master spy. I think building him around the fact that he survived a fight with Dooku (which is not one of his most memorable scenes) would not be the strongest way to go with him. I agree with you on this one. He wasn't a great duelist, I just thought of an intersting powerful combo that would be fun to put on a piece.
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 18, 2009 0:18:29 GMT -5
Just to throw it out there while I can...
I had thought while designing that, if a CE were to be found appropriate, perhaps something that helps characters making use of Lightsaber Sweep, such as all the Quilon Vos's and a variety of others. Such as:
CE: Followers gain +4 attack when using Lightsaber Sweep
or something.
It doesn't really have anything to do with him, but it could work if we want it to.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 18, 2009 1:19:33 GMT -5
That seems very limiting as well. Why Sweep in particular, because Vos has it?
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Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 2:32:00 GMT -5
Yeah, I know the CE is a little limiting. It's largely designed to work with Quinlan Vos and Aayla (and the new Cloaked Jedi that we'll inevitably be getting in future sets...).
Remember, though, that the second part of the CE doesn't require a Force rating (just Cloaked), so he can also work with GenoHaradan assassins (I think they're currently the only Fringe piece with cloaked). There's also some nice synergy with Kriea in gameplay: she can use her Force Cloak, then benefit from his CE, using it to get into position for a Triple Attack.
I'm going to be completely honest about Tholme: I like the character; always have. But I don't feel the need to make him a powerhouse. The Republic is sooo very powerful in SWM, that my design was more for flavor than power-gaming. He's got some cool gimmicks, and is designed to be in a squad that suggest certain other members (just as the new Luminara suggests playing her with Bariss).
Would there every be a Tier 1 Tholme squad? Doubt it. But there doesn't need to be. Whereas with someone like Lord Hoth or Zannah, I'm asking myself "How can this piece help their faction compete?", with Tholme (who is in arguably the most competitive faction in the game), my approach is "Does this guy bring something fun, interesting, and a little different to his faction?"
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 21, 2009 14:33:58 GMT -5
Good points about flavor over competitivity. However, I still think the CE is just more of a hinderance. Unlike Ulic's CE where we knew something was coming, (Mandos just hadn't been released yet) we don't really know if lots of Stealthed or Cloaked pieces will come out in the future. If we go for a CE that affects followers will Stealth, a much wider array of pieces is opened up.
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Post by gwek on Dec 21, 2009 15:17:00 GMT -5
You don't think the ability to give a Jedi (even one from a fairly small stable) virtual Intuition is interesting enough?
I think it's a pretty impressive edge (especially when combined with all the other options the Republic cane bring to bear).
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 21, 2009 17:57:12 GMT -5
No, I didn't mean that at all. It's interesting enough, but there's not enough of a pool of pieces to choose from. There's only 5 Jedi with Stealth to gain the CE (and 3 other pieces who already have Cloaked). It severely limits who you can effectively play him with.
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Post by gwek on Dec 22, 2009 4:02:09 GMT -5
That's kinda the point. He generally takes the field with other, similarly stealthy Jedi (notably Aayla and Quin). If this were a smaller faction with less options, I would try to make him more broadly effective, but, as I've said, the Republic can afford niche pieces like this, I think. It's somewhat comparable to those "affects Pilot" CEs when they first came out. It took a number of sets before there were more than 1 or 2 options.
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