Master Tholme

[Roque Saber]

Then make it Synenergy, don't waste his usefulness as a follower on a semi-useable CE. Or, as I've stressed earlier, make his CE affect all followers with Stealth. It still shows his "stealthy" approach, but it gives him a broader range of pieces to work with.

[gwek]

I'm not looking for a stat booster like Synergy.

I wanted something a little more interesting, and thought a movement breaker like Revan's would fit nicely with his semi-strategic approach to things.

What I had was this:

Once per round, after initiative is determined, 1 ally with Cloaked can immediately move up to its Speed before any other character activates.

While it only (currently) affects a limited number of pieces, they are all good pieces. If we were to broaden the same CE to all Stealth characters (the Republic has access to about 4 dozen), I think it's far too powerful, unless we're going to price him very high.

I don't necessarily think it's appropriate for him to have a broader range of pieces to work with. If you're going to force Stealth on the above CE, I'd suggest starting fresh for game balance purposes. Tholme shouldn't be moving Cad Bane into play.

[Dendrite]

I think a limited number of characters to work with fits well with his character. He's not exactly always a team player and likes to do things his way for the good of what he cares about.

[darthgrievous]

So can we get an update on stats at this point.

[gwek]

Here's what I'd posted earlier. I'm not sure that that were any explicit changes based on the discussion (which mostly revolved around the CE and lack of Force Renewal).

Looking at him again, I'd probably want to add Intuition, so he can keep up with the ally that his commander effect benefits. Although there are only a small number of pieces (currently) that he works well with, I think the idea of two advancing Jedi is an interesting niche for the Republic.

As I said on page 1, the faction is powerful enough that I'm less asking "How can I help the Republic?" so much as "How can I come up with something interesting and different for the Republic?"

Dec 16, 2009 23:02:45 GMT -5 gwek said:

Tholme
Cost:
Faction: Republic
Hit Points: 100
Defense: 19
Attack: 10
Damage: 20

Unique
Melee Attack, Double Attack
Avoid Defeat (Whenever this character would be defeated, make 2 saves, each needing 11; if both succeed, this character has 10 Hit Points instead of being defeated)
Cloaked (If this character has cover, he cannot be targeted by nonadjacent enemies.)
Cunning Attack (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against an enemy who has not activated this round)

Force 5; Master of the Force 2
Force Alter (Force 1: range 6; any 1 enemy rerolls its last attack)
Jedi Mind Trick (Force 1, usable only on this character's turn: range 2; target living enemy is considered activated this round and cannot make attacks of opportunity this turn; save 11)

Commander Effect:
Allies with a Force rating with Stealth gain Cloaked.
Once per round, after initiative is determined, 1 ally with Cloaked can immediately move up to its Speed before any other character activates.

I'd probably price him in the high 30s without Intuition, low 40s with it.

[darthgrievous]

So maybe add intuition and make him 41?

[gwek]

I'm fine with that if other folks like.

[Dendrite]

Intuition could work, but I'm not sure if it's necessary...maybe Surprise Move?

[gwek]

The issue with Surprise move is that (as currently statted), he only has 5 FP.

I think the balance of his Force powers gives him something pretty unique: 5 FP means he has only a limited number of tricks, but MotF (especially paired with Force Alter and JMT) mean that if he trots his powers out at the right time, they might have a BIG impact.

Once he's out of juice, though (which can happen rather quickly) he's got few tricks to fall back on. That's why I gave him Cloaked instead of Force Cloak and am considering Intuition over Surprise Move. This way, he has some "dedicated" tricks for when he's out of Force points.

I'd be fine with upping the cost if people agree it's an interesting/unique build, but he seems too cheap.

[Roque Saber]

His stats are fine, I'm still just really bugged by the CE. Since you like to use Wizo's precendents, could you show a precedent for such a limited CE? I love the pseudo-Intuition, but if it forces me to spend nearly half of my squad on pieces to make that useful (e.g Tholme + Shaak, JM) than it's a lot less compelling.

[Dendrite]

Well, there's Obi-Wan, JM's CE where you have to spend points on an Anikan

[gwek]

This is for commanders with a cost of 19 or less who effect a very limited number of pieces:

Characters named Imperial Navy Trooper within 6 squares gain Double Attack.

Followers within 6 squares whose names contain Snowtrooper gain Squad Assault.

Followers within 6 squares whose names contain Snowtrooper get +4 Attack.

Allies whose names contain Ugnaught gain Self-Destruct 10.

Allies whose names contain Bespin Guard get +2 Attack.

Allied characters with Pilot gain Grenades 20.
Allied characters with Pilot gain Penetration 20.

Allies whose names contain Yuuzhan Vong Warrior within 6 squares gain Double Attack.

Allies whose names contain Naboo Soldier gain Bodyguard.

Characters in your squad with Order 66 and Mobile Attack (including this character) do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Allies named Old Republic Soldier within 6 squares gain Double Attack.

Commando followers with Grenades 10 instead gain Grenades 20.

Trooper followers gain Careful Shot +4.

At the end of this character's turn, 1 follower within 6 squares whose name contains Republic Commando can make an immediate attack.

Allied characters named Sith Trooper gain Deadeye.

Now, admittedly, most of these can affect non-unique characters, but many of them can only impact 1-2 non-Uniques total, so I'd call that a wash.

Would you like me to continue with the commanders that cost 20+?

EDIT: Good call, Dendrite.

[Roque Saber]

Obi, JM's CE was an abovery *friendly* persone waste. He could've been far better if the CE was Synenergy instead.

GWEk: Your list is solid, but 1) The commanders are cheap 2) As you said, they mainly affect non-uniques. Tholme affects uniques and, as he is, is quite expensive.

[gwek]

Seriously? You'er going to make me do the REST of the commanders?

First, Tholme's CE isn't limited to Uniques. It just happens that the only pieces who can benefit right now are Unique. If he were in the Old Republic, he'd have the Sector Watchman and the Sentinel to play with, and I think both the Imperials and the Sith have a Stealth non-Unique with a Force rating.

Further, 3 of the pieces he can affect cost in the 20s, which is comparable to high-end non-Uniques. And don't forget that the secondary part of his commander effect impacts GenoHaradan Assassins (as well as future Fringe pieces with Cloaked). Paired with the Dark Woman, she can give Force Tutor to a piece with Stealth, and he can give then give them Cloaked. Given that DW has Force Cloak herself, this is a nice little stealthy squad.

In terms of expensive commanders: Exar Kun, who was the most expensive piece in the game for quite some time, only affected 6 savage pieces when he was first created.

Heck, both Ulic and the original Mandalore impacted only a very limited number of pieces for quite a few sets.

Hondo Ohnaka currently affects a whopping ONE piece.

Jabba the Hutt, when introduced, affected only a small nubmer of Uniques. Argyus, Bail Organa, Xizor... all are limtied to a small number of pieces they affect.

Admittedly, again, most of these options include non-uniques, but Jabba, I think, is solid precedent for what I'm looking at.

[Roque Saber]

Non-unique is the big thing though. You can field a horde of pieces, not just one.

Also, the pieces in the 20's are Shaak Ti and Saesee Tiin who are from Clone Strike. Yah, not gonna be using them anytime soon. The other pieces are 34 and 47 points, which runs into the problem I presented earlier.

Exar Kun, who was the most expensive piece in the game for quite some time, only affected 6 savage pieces when he was first created.

7 actually, all of which were non-unique. 2 of them were also under 20 points, allowing you to field quite a few of them.

Heck, both Ulic and the original Mandalore impacted only a very limited number of pieces for quite a few sets.

True, but they weren't boosting one of the "Big 4" factions.

Hondo Ohnaka currently affects a whopping ONE piece.

I don't think there are any players who actually took that seriously. It was one of Rob's many blunders.

Jabba the Hutt, when introduced, affected only a small nubmer of Uniques.

Well ya, Jabba was in the first set, Tholme is not.

Sorry to be so argumentative, but as a stat-creater and a player, I want to make sure all the customs I make are playable. I don't want to have to force myself to play Tholme with Shaak, Ti, Vos, or Genos just so I can make use of his CE.