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Post by xpraider on Apr 29, 2010 21:46:03 GMT -5
Getting a hard and fast number is a bit of finesse.
I'd say if we wanted to cost him more aggressively, we could go into the low 40s. Now he's not a spectacular damage dealer, but he has a few things going for him utility wise that make him well worth his points.
Cloaked is huge in a day with a lot of shooting, It negates most of the most powerful figures in the game. Disruptive absolutely can not be written off as an ability. There are quite simply a lot of squads that are very powerful because of their CEs. Negating them while being able to close in is a very powerful advantage. And he does have some nice survivability with both Avoid Defeat and MoTF 2.
His base stats and other abilities are more just icing on the cake for him, and I think he allows for some more interesting builds that you don't typically see with the Republic, but not necessarily more powerful.
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Post by gwek on Apr 29, 2010 22:09:57 GMT -5
So, before we start declaring doom on our project (which has already far surpassed my initial expectations), let's make sure we're all agreed on Tholme. BH9 thought that he looks undercosted now. What does everyone think about that? The project has far surpassed your initial expectiations? You expected it to really get nowhere?!? As for "declaring doom" on the project, we've been spinning our wheels for the better part of a month. Daala was the last of a volley of pieces approved in early/mid-March. At that point, C'Baoth (who took another month and a week to approve) was close to done. Celeste Morne has been pretty much on hold, and even though we're progressing on Tholme, the stats we now have are a tweak of a set we were looking at about a month ago.
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Post by Roque Saber on Apr 29, 2010 22:20:30 GMT -5
Well, regardless, let's finish up Tholme before we start discussing other matters. Or just make a new thread.
I totally agree xpraider. Tholme has an unprecedented combo of abilities to go with Disruptive, which makes him plain nasty. Plus, as I believe Gwek originally intended, Tholme isn't made to change the Republic meta, just to give them an alternative piece. The other options the Republic has for this range are Shaak, JM, Jensaarai, Kreia, and General Skywalker. Does Tholme stand up as a realistic alternative to these?
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Post by gwek on Apr 29, 2010 22:24:49 GMT -5
Well, regardless, let's finish up Tholme before we start discussing other matters. Why? This step-by-step approach is why we're spinning our wheels. We have no clear agenda, no clear leadership, and no clear direction. While I don't want to be negative, I think we definitely need to start making strong, decisive moves. There IS another thread, but there doesn't seem to be as much discussion there...
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Post by gwek on Apr 29, 2010 22:27:39 GMT -5
On Tholme, I think pretty much agree with xpraider and RS.
I think the price we have him at is good. He's got a really interesting range of abilities--and, in a faction as powerful as the Republic, I think we should err on the side of conservative rather than aggressive.
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Post by Roque Saber on Apr 29, 2010 23:22:26 GMT -5
Agreed. When dealing with Rebels and Republic, always go conserative! Is this thread ready for lockdown?
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Post by gwek on Apr 30, 2010 8:49:21 GMT -5
Looks good to me.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Apr 30, 2010 14:36:28 GMT -5
Since my vision on which "version" this Tholme is, and yes if we can have a dozen Vaders, why not more than one Tholme in my far, far, away galaxay, I'll roll with the majority. My only question would be to BH; is he overcosted because of what you see in the new set, or what you've concluded after a fair amount of thought? I try Not to be swayed by something new. Would he have been 49 without the new set? Or would you have changed to a lower amount anyway? No, it's not because of the new set that I think he should be costed lower. It's simply because I don't think he adds enough to a squad to be worth his points. He adds Disruptive/Cloaked, but once he gets close enough to the enemy he's going to disrupt, they can easily move <6 squares to base Tholme and open fire. To make the best use out of Disruptive, you'll have to have multiple enemies within striking distance, who can take down Tholme quickly. However, I'll sign off on him at 45 if everyone else thinks that would be the best course of action. I could see an interesting squad involving a Yobuck swapping Tholme into the enemy's commander area to wreak some havoc. Still, we should not overcost a piece just because the Republic is a strong faction. We all know that doing this would make the piece unplayable in light of more effecient options. To make a strong faction weaker, the answer is not to provide that faction with less cost efficient pieces, but to make pieces for other factions that will counter the strong pieces that the powerful factions already have. I just want to make sure everyone thinks this through more than simply going the "conservative" route and leaving it at that.
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Post by Roque Saber on Apr 30, 2010 14:43:23 GMT -5
Well put BH9. But also remember that the Republic has a lot to offer Tholme, so his close range needed for Disruptive can be boosted. Also keep in mind that, while a signature ability, Disruptive probably won't be his only role.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Apr 30, 2010 14:50:36 GMT -5
Well put BH9. But also remember that the Republic has a lot to offer Tholme, so his close range needed for Disruptive can be boosted. Also keep in mind that, while a signature ability, Disruptive probably won't be his only role. How would you boost his Disruptive range? Do you mean figuratively, with movement breakers? Whether with movement breakers or not, he's still in harm's way in the end. Unless you could get a mid-size or larger force up to protect him and fight the CE-stripped enemies. But they'll be pegged off my mobile shooters in a lot of situations. I'm curious: what other role would you play him in?
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Post by gwek on Apr 30, 2010 21:43:22 GMT -5
I think you're undercutting some of his support abilities. Yes, getting within 6 squares of commanders might make him vulnerable, but remember that many of those commanders are non-uniques with 30-50 HP. They're not a major thread to Tholme--in fact, Tholme can take care of many of them himself.
Further, he has some quality defensive capabilities. He can stop those enemies from coming after him with Force Stun or Force Alter. Even if they attack him, he's got a decent amount of HP and can always use Avoid Defeat to limp away to one of the Republic's many healers...
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Apr 30, 2010 22:42:42 GMT -5
His support abilities may be marginally effective is some situations, but they do not make a 45 point piece. Disruptive and Cloaked do. Stun (which, like Disruptive, has a range limit)requires that an FP be spent, and that the one enemy (or two if he spends 2 FP) he can stun fails the save. Alter (again, range limit) only eliminates, to some degree, the 'luck factor' of your opponent, and shouldn't change the outcome of too many battles.
Avoid Defeat and MotF 2 is a fearsome combination, but it's not going to keep him alive all that long while he's stuck at 10 HP and burning FPs.
He doesn't seem to do enough to be worth his cost, compared to other options the Republic has. General Skywalker has an excellent commander effect along with very good damage output and board range, and Shaak Ti JM has excellent anti-melee capabilities, good anti-ranged capabilities and damage potential, and (like Tholme) is a follower, who can gain a lot of powerful abilities (some of which Tholme can't get, such as Evade and Greater Mobile Attack). Generally, these more 'direct' pieces will provide a safer option than the 'gimmicky' Tholme will.
I think a cost reduction of about six points (to 39) would keep Tholme balanced, prevent abuse, and make him another option in some squads. While one of the aforementioned Jedi may be a better bet in some cases, this won't always be the case if Tholme costs around 39.
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Post by gwek on May 1, 2010 0:19:15 GMT -5
I respect your opinion, BH, but in this case, I respectfully disagree. I feel like you're trying to price him based on a role he wasn't designed for (and price him compared to pieces that were designed for that role).
When it comes right down to it, if you want a Jedi with Disruptive, you're going to play him at 39 or 45 because he's the only game in town.
I feel very strongly that he belongs in the 40+ class, due to the efficiency of his combo of abilities, as well as the unique nature of Disruptive and Cloaked. I understand that you think it's limited once you're in position, but the value of Cloaked to get into position is pretty high if you ask me.
Even giving you the benefit of the doubt and saying "Hm, maybe he should be priced as low as 39..." That doesn't change the fact that I think we should price our Republic pieces relatively conservatively, which, again, brings him back to the 40s.
Are we all agreed on the stats at this point and just discussing the price?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on May 1, 2010 9:56:27 GMT -5
I respect your opinion, BH, but in this case, I respectfully disagree. I feel like you're trying to price him based on a role he wasn't designed for (and price him compared to pieces that were designed for that role). I'm not trying to price him based on a role he wasn't designed for, but rather so that he fits that role effectively enough to be played over more direct options. When it comes right down to it, if you want a Jedi with Disruptive, you're going to play him at 39 or 45 because he's the only game in town. He may be the only Disruptive Jedi the Republic has access to, but you're less inclined to play him if he costs more. I feel very strongly that he belongs in the 40+ class, due to the efficiency of his combo of abilities, as well as the unique nature of Disruptive and Cloaked. I understand that you think it's limited once you're in position, but the value of Cloaked to get into position is pretty high if you ask me. Sure, Cloaked is very good for getting him into position, but he is ineffective until he gets into position. Once he's there, the big attraction of this piece - obviously being Disruptive - kicks in. But then he can killed off. It might last a few phases, or maybe even a round. But in that time, you're going to have to be facing an opponent who relies heavily on commander effects to make enough use out of him to justify such a high point cost. The damage he can deal is almost negligible, and his other effects don't make him worth such a high cost in a lot of situations. Even giving you the benefit of the doubt and saying "Hm, maybe he should be priced as low as 39..." That doesn't change the fact that I think we should price our Republic pieces relatively conservatively, which, again, brings him back to the 40s. Again, I don't see the reasoning behind overcosting pieces from the stronger factions. I could, maybe, see purpose behind aggressively pricing an OR, Vong, or Sith piece, but that makes the faction stronger. I could throw a hundred overcosted pieces at any faction, and it won't make the faction any weaker. Are we all agreed on the stats at this point and just discussing the price? I believe so (I do like the stats, with the exception of the price). Although we could come to a compromise by lowering the cost and changing something, such as dropping Cloaked for Force Cloak, if we wanted to do that.
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Post by gwek on May 1, 2010 20:20:45 GMT -5
We're not talking about overcosting. We're talking about pricing aggressively vs conservatively. Based on discussion, the group collectively seems to think that price somewhere in the range of 39 to 45 would be reasonable. I say err on the side of caution here. That does not explicitly make him overpriced, although some might view it that way. It's
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