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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jan 5, 2010 16:50:08 GMT -5
Looks good. Excellent work with this one.
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Post by Roque Saber on Jan 5, 2010 18:54:10 GMT -5
K then, locking thread.
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Post by gwek on Jun 1, 2010 22:16:13 GMT -5
Figured I'd bump a new one up for discussion...
Here's what we had for Ben:
Ben Skywalker Faction: New Republic Cost: 23 Hit Points: 60 Defense: 16 Attack: 8 Damage: 10
Special Abilities Unique Affinity (A character whose name contains Caedus or Jacen Solo may be in your squad regardless of faction) Impulsive Dark Temptation (If a Unique allied character is defeated, for the remainder of the skirmish this character has Dark Temptation [Force 1: +4 attack and +20 damage until end of this character's turn. At the end of that turn make a save of 11; if this save fails, this character joins the opponent's squad until the end of the skirmish]) Lightsaber +10 (+10 Damage against adjacent enemies) Synergy (+4 Attack when an ally whose name contains Caedus or Jacen Solo is within 6 squares) Synergy (+4 Defense when an ally whose name contains Skywalker is within 6 squares) Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, he makes 1 extra attack against the same target)
Force Powers Force 3 Force Cloak (Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Cloaked) Lightsaber Block (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11)
*****
As is, he has 9 qualities, which puts him above average. He also weighs in at almost a thousand characters, when I think the "safe" range only extends up to 800 or so (some characters have more, but they generally have fewer abilities... those bolded ability names take up a lot of space!).
The challenge for me personally is that I really like him as-is!
I LIKE the double Synergy. I think it makes him an interesting and unique character.
I LIKE the Affinity and the option to bring Caedus into the NR... it fixes something that perhaps WotC should have done in the first place.
I LIKE Impulsive Dark Temptation. I think it's very appropriate to the character.
I LIKE Force Cloak on him. It's an ability that he clearly had.
The other abilities--Lightsaber +10, Twin Attack, and Lightsaber Block--are all pretty standard abilities for a piece like this.
So... what to do?
Some ideas that I can think of--without changing the piece TOO much:
1) Take the "Impulsive" out of Dark Temptation. I REALLY like the concept, but that single change cuts over 100 characters, bringing us significantly closer to the count we're looking for. We could also switch to Dispassionate Killer if the word count is shorter (I could see either being appropriate).
2) Raise his base damage to 20, which allows us to cut Lightsaber.
3) Switch Twin Attack to Double Attack. I think that makes him a little more "standard", and as a shooter, it probably raises his cost a bit.
4) Possibly cut Lightsaber Block.
I'm just throwing ideas out to try to cut from the piece that we currently have, but perhaps starting from the ground up will be a better way to go. What do you guys think?
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Post by surfrider56 on Jun 2, 2010 0:30:55 GMT -5
Wasn't around for the original discuss while on Grandpa Hiatus; why the need for non-melee piece plus lightsaber? He's a Jedi ... make him Melee and give'm the blade ...
Barring that, dispite your love Gw for the double synergy, I'd say take out the first part relating to Jacen/Caedus.
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Post by gwek on Jun 2, 2010 7:07:01 GMT -5
Wasn't around for the original discuss while on Grandpa Hiatus; why the need for non-melee piece plus lightsaber? He's a Jedi ... make him Melee and give'm the blade ... If I recall correctly, he uses a gun when he's working for Caedus. In fact, I think he tries to kill someone using a blaster. I'm not opposed to making him melee, but the non-melee part was to reflect his time with GAG. But that's what makes him cool!
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 2, 2010 15:13:11 GMT -5
I would agree that if we want to cut something, one of the first things to go should be one of the Synergies. While it is cool, I'd rather see it on a character with a lot less abilities. I think dropping the Caedus synergy is a good idea, considering Ben already has Affinity for Caedus.
Also, I think we should keep LS Block if we can because it shows that he has a lightsaber, and we won't have to worry about his figure having a lightsaber and a gun.
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Post by gwek on Jun 2, 2010 20:05:38 GMT -5
I'm not opposed to keeping LS Block, but I would honestly assume that the mini WOULD have a lightsaber. (In fact, I've been assuming the figure would be a repaint of Anakin Solo, with red hair and a black uniform).
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 2, 2010 20:49:14 GMT -5
Okay, just making sure. I try to make give customs who are meant to have a lightsaber at least one LS power (or Lightsaber +10), so that just by looking at the stats you can tell, but we don't need LS Block, assuming we go with the Anakin Solo repaint.
Also, does his Affinity need to say "a character whose name contains Caedus OR JACEN SOLO may....", when the all caps words won't affect any current WotC figures or NLT customs? That's some more text that we could drop. It also makes thematic sense, since Jacen is only a Sith as Caedus, and would otherwise be part of the NR as far as I can tell.
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Post by gwek on Jun 2, 2010 22:06:53 GMT -5
You're completely right about trimming the affinity of Jacen Solo. At the time we initially statted him, the SWM line hadn't been cancelled, so the future existence of a piece like "Jacen Solo, Sith Lord" was a possibility.
I just went back and re-read this thread and it's very interesting to see. I think it may be one of the most straightforward discussions we've had on a piece, and you can see, step by step, how we moved from the original idea presented to the one we have now. Not that this is particularly vital, but it does include the"why" of many of the questions now being asked.
Based on the re-read, I think we many want to stick with ranged attack and possibly Lightsaber +10/Twin (or maybe damange of 20, with only a single attack). If we're still going with the approach that this is Ben during his time with GAG, he's not a particularly outstanding combatant.
If we keep the Skywalker Synergy and Dark Temptation but cut the Caedus/Jacen Syergy, we're basically designing a piece intended to be paired with Leia Skywalker. That is not necessarily a bad thing, but is something we should be aware of.
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Post by fardreamer on Jun 4, 2010 19:33:16 GMT -5
Long time no post ;D
I think it'd be tragic to lose Ben's 'ranged' attack ability, because it helps the NR faction which is light on 'in faction' shooters. It's most definatly cannon as has been stated.
When I originally designed him as a personal custom, I thought a lot about the twin vs double question. I gave him twin so that he can't get quad (czerka), which I think would be problematic.
The double synergy is such a huge part of his flavor too. I'd rather change DT into a force power, and maybe drop block. That'd be the change that upsets his flavor the least. I firmly believe that the 'core' of this mini is pretty solid.
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Post by gwek on Jun 5, 2010 8:34:04 GMT -5
I think I agree with everything you've said, although there might be room to fiddle with him being ranged. Assuming we don't want him to get Twin from the CzerkSci, options include:
1) 10 damage with Twin
2) 20 damage (could be single, Double, or Twin)
3) 20 Melee damage (single or Double?) with Blaster
Not that I'm necessarily pushing for it, but 20 damage (ranged) might make sense from a layout point of view, because it allows us to cut both Twin Attack and Lightsaber+10. Even if he has Double Attack, that ability doesn't need to be written out.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 24, 2010 0:10:12 GMT -5
Of those three options, I like the first two the best. The Blaster ability is a bit too cumbersome for my tastes, and I think we should avoid using it unless we have to.
Out of number 1 or 2, it doesn't really matter to me which we go with. I could see both working fairly well.
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Post by gwek on Jul 1, 2010 23:39:17 GMT -5
Since Ben is currently slated for Week 2, I figured I'd bring him back to life. Here's a stab at a version with fewer words (based on some of the discussion we've been having): Ben Skywalker, GAG TrooperFaction: New Republic Cost: Hit Points: 60 Defense: 16 Attack: 8 Damage: 10 Special Abilities Unique Affinity (A character whose name contains Caedus may be in your squad regardless of faction) Lightsaber +10 (+10 Damage against adjacent enemies) Synergy (+4 Attack when an ally whose name contains Caedus or Jacen Solo is within 6 squares) Synergy (+4 Defense when an ally whose name contains Skywalker is within 6 squares) Force Powers Force 3 Force Cloak (Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Cloaked) Dark Temptation (Force 1: +4 attack and +20 damage until end of this character's turn. At the end of that turn make a save of 11; if this save fails, this character joins the opponent's squad until the end of the skirmish) ***** With these changes, he comes in at just under 700 characters, which makes him essentially safe, I think (or, if not, very close). Dispassionate Killer (detailed below) is about 20 character shorter than Dark Temptation. Honestly, I think I like the function of DK better, but the name better for DT. Could go either way. Dispassionate Killer (Force 1: +4 Attack and +20 Damage until the end of this character's turn. At the end of that turn, make a save of 11. If the save fails, this character is immediately defeated.)I kept damage at 10, without either Double or Twin. Why not let him have access to Czerka? There are more abusive pieces that have it, I figure. I added "GAG Trooper" to his name, which has 2 effects. First, it tells the audience WHICH version of Ben we're working toward. Second, it will let him benefit from the NR Commander's CE. Careful Shot isn't bad, but it's certainly game-breakling on Ben. All in all, I think he winds up being a not-too-tough piece (on his own) who can really blossom with the right support.
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Post by surfrider56 on Jul 2, 2010 10:56:47 GMT -5
I seem to have lightsabers on my mind; should he have a lightsaber ability like Deflect or Reflect? Not too melee oriented but a better defensive ability and a choice if DT isn't your cup of tea.
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Post by gwek on Jul 2, 2010 11:35:31 GMT -5
Since he can get Cloaked, I think a defensive LS ability might be overkill on a piece in his price category. At least that's my thinking.
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