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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 22, 2009 9:33:22 GMT -5
I think her defense is fine where it is...Book 3 is out now so we can really follow up her shortly. Add Synergy to characters named Darth Bane. Since she basically only has Stun atm, then I would either add cloaked or Corruption 10/20.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 22, 2009 11:35:29 GMT -5
Although Stealth and SSM seems like overkill, Stealth is fairly appropriate to the character. Perhaps instead we could go with Force Cloak (also very appropriate)? Although Cloaked IS more powerful than Stealth in theory: 1) you have to pay Force points, and 2) it's not a pre-req for any commander effects that I can think of. Lol. It could happen, but Cloaked makes the problem even worse (if it is a problem). I would be fine with Stealth.
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Post by gwek on Dec 22, 2009 11:51:11 GMT -5
Maybe something like this?
Darth Zannah Cost: 50-ish... Faction: Sith Hit Points: 110 Defense: 18 Attack: 11 Damage: 20
Unique. Melee Attack; Double Attack Soresu Style Mastery (When hit by an attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) Synergy (+4 Attack and +4 Defense while an allied character whose name contains Darth Bane is within 6 squares)
Force 4 Force Cloak (Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Cloaked) Force Corruption 2 (Force 2, replaces attacks: range 6, non-Droids only; 20 damage, and target is corrupted. Each time the corrupted character activates, it must attempt a save of 11. On a failure, that character takes 20 damage. On a success, that character is no longer corrupted.) Force Stun (Force 1, usable only on this character's turn: range 6; target living enemy is considered activated this round; save 11) Lightsaber Riposte (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character can make an immediate attack against that attacker)
SOME NOTES
I lowered her defense by 1 point because she has both Force Cloak and defensive Synergy with Bane (so, two different ways to boost her already-impressive SSM). We could go to just offensive Synergy, but I thought both was interesting.
You will also notice that I tentative gave her a flat 4 Force points, rather than 2 with Force Renewal. Here's what I was thinking:
All characters who currently have Force Cloak start with a finite number of Force points, which makes the decision to use it a little trickier. Further, the only legal character with SSM (FlObi) also has a finite number of Force points. Fore game balance (and bearing in mind the huge about of discussion surrounding GOWK), this seemed liked a potentially sound choice. (Remember also that Zannah can boost her Force points via HoloSid. If we stat Vergere in the direction we're headed, she will also potentially be a Fringe Force battery, giving Zannah another option.)
Edit: Just saw RS's response. I would say not intuition, but perhaps Surprise Move. I want to check some stuff before responding to the Stealth vs Cloaked discussion.
Further edit: My concern with giving her Stealth is that, via the Black Sun Vigos, she can get Evade and Greater Mobile Attack. Yes, it's a lot of points to spend, but I believe SSM + Evade = broken.
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 22, 2009 12:11:42 GMT -5
I inda like where you're going with that. Wouldn't 50 be a little high, though? Once she's out of force, she just does 40 damage, ans the synergy, while it makes her at 15 att and 22 def, is quite costly to use and without it, she's about on par with a 45 point character.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 22, 2009 12:25:36 GMT -5
Ya, she's a little expensive. I'm still tentative about Synenergy, it doesn't seem worth the points that are being put into it.
Also, if Force Cloak is what's keeping her from Renewal, let's scrap it and give her Stealth. Renewal, MotF 2, and Stun is what we had thought of beforehand. Also, if half her force powers take half her force points to use, she isn't really gonna be able to use them effectively, especially since she still can reroll saves and use Stun/Riposte. A limited number of force is just too...limiting for her.
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Post by gwek on Dec 22, 2009 12:33:18 GMT -5
Could be your right. I kept the price in as a placeholder. With the exception of the few changes I mentioned, I was just updating the most recent version based on some subsequent conversation.
If we wanted to make Synergy more potentially useful, we could change it to any Unique (Sith?) ally with a Force rating. Theoretically, this might represent her hunt for an apprentice just as much as it does her apprenticeship to Bane. In particular, this presents a nice synergy with Malak, I think, who winds up driving her attack up by +8!
A few more thoughts:
If we want to give her Renewal, I would suggest lowering the starting to 1 and possibly cutting Force Cloaked, and replacing it with Stealth.
If we give her Stealth, we may want to consider a commander effect (so she can't get Evade, and consequently can't benefit from the deadly combo of SSM, Evade, and re-rolls via Renewal).
Is there any precedent for a character granting itself a bonus through a commander effect? If so, if we decide to go with a CE, I'd like to once again suggest my "rule of two" idea (If your squad contains exactly two Unique non-Sith characters with a Force rating, both characters gain Ambush and Cloaked until the end of the skirmish... or something like that).
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 22, 2009 12:43:12 GMT -5
Is there any precedent for a character granting itself a bonus through a commander effect? Only the ones that start with "Characters in your squad...including this character..." like Nom or the RCSTL.
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Post by gwek on Dec 22, 2009 12:45:15 GMT -5
Also, if Force Cloak is what's keeping her from Renewal, let's scrap it and give her Stealth. See my previous comments. Although Force Cloak factors in, honestly, what makes me not want her to have Renewal is her SSM. Stealth (without a commander effect) can get her Evade. SSM + Evade + Renewal = broken. While I like THAT combo, MotF + SSM = broken. On the one hand, if she had a set number of starting points, it might not be that broken, but on the other hand, there's HoloSid. Renewal/HoloSid + SSM + MotF = broken. But that's a design choice that WotC makes on many of their pieces. I mean, wouldn't the JWM be better if he wasn't limited to only 3 FP? Only about 25% of Force-using pieces have FR. Even if we look at the 40 piece sets (which have a slightly higher ratio), it's still only about 1 in 3. In a void, I don't necessarily have a problem with her having FR, but she's circling around a few abilities that can cause a synergy issue. We need to look very carefully at the balance of things, especially around the oh-so-controversial SSM.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 22, 2009 12:56:42 GMT -5
With all of her training, I think renewal is quite necessary. I can see dropping cloaked for stealth. I can also see starting with force 1 as well, representing her being his apprentice and growing in strength. Here is something else as well, if someone is going to spend some rediculous amount of points to get evade, stealth, and who knows what else, ok fine do that then. There are lots of combos that cost a lot and are very broken, like Boba, triple bothan noble, leia, han, dodonna, combo.
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Post by gwek on Dec 22, 2009 13:00:27 GMT -5
I respectfully submit that if she's going to have Stealth, she must have a commander effect.
Given all the hoopla surrounding GOWK, I think it would be a very, very poor decision to create a character who can throw Evade on top of SSM.
While you're right that there are a number of very broken combos, Stealth and one piece in the low 20s gets her Evade. It's not too tricky (or even costly) to pull off.
And while SSM wasn't the only thing that got GOWK banned, abusing the ability WAS one of the most important (if not the single key) element that got him banned. We should tread lightly with respect to SSM.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 22, 2009 13:06:42 GMT -5
But she was never a commander, so that isn't canon at all. Why can't we just to SSM with cloaked...this thread has gone on so long now I can't even remember the reasoning...but here is another possibility.
Darth Zannah Cost: 48 Faction: Sith Hit Points: 100 Defense: 19 Attack: 10 Damage: 20
Unique. Melee Attack; Double Attack Soresu Style Mastery (When hit by an attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) Synergy (+4 Attack and +4 Defense while an allied character whose name contains Darth Bane is within 6 squares)
Force 1 Renewal 1 Force Cloak (Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Cloaked) Force Corruption 2 (Force 2, replaces attacks: range 6, non-Droids only; 20 damage, and target is corrupted. Each time the corrupted character activates, it must attempt a save of 11. On a failure, that character takes 20 damage. On a success, that character is no longer corrupted.) Force Stun (Force 1, usable only on this character's turn: range 6; target living enemy is considered activated this round; save 11) Lightsaber Riposte (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character can make an immediate attack against that attacker)
Dropped HP to 100, dropped attack to 10 so that with Malak and Bane she doesn't go past 18 and changed her def to 19
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 22, 2009 13:07:56 GMT -5
To remedy to SSM reroll in problem, we could just throw on Force Aescetic for balance
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 22, 2009 13:11:05 GMT -5
Force Aescetic, I cant even remember that power, time to get out the book.
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 22, 2009 13:13:07 GMT -5
Force Aescetic, I cant even remember that power, time to get out the book. It's the one Jacen Solo has where you can't use fp to reroll or move faster
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 22, 2009 13:13:31 GMT -5
oh....cant reroll or move extra, hmmm I like it, makes me want to give her Surprise move or Intuition for some reason.
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