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Post by xpraider on Dec 11, 2009 0:23:50 GMT -5
Ok, from what we know about Zannah she wasn't a real strong fighter, but was very agile and a master sorceress/force user.
Darth Zannah Cost: 36
HP: 110 Def: 18 Atk: 12 Dam: 20
Special Abilities: Melee Attack, Greater Mobile Attack, Soresu Style, Double Attack, Twin Attack
Force: Force 2, Force Renewal 1 Lightsaber Block Sith Sorcery Force Absorb
So here's a fairly basic Zannah. Her basic story is that Bane took her on as an apprentice, and trained her to fight using her natural agility and abilities to her advantage. Since she didn't have his physical power, he taught her how to defend and then attack, using a double bladed lightsaber. And she mostly used Soresu Style to do so.
I made her with the idea of being a complement to Bane. While he's big and brutish, using his high HP to keep alive and has a lot of damage per hit, Zannah is a bit faster and more defensive, and will strike more often, but each hit will do less damage and she can't take a hit a well. Now she's still an apprentice so doesn't have his high cost or quite the same out and out power as he does, but she'll still be a nice addition to the Sith and someone who would work well with Bane (at least in a 150/200 point game).
I also gave her Sith Sorcery simply because it's one of her mainstay abilities, and Force Absorb since she was able to survive the thought bomb.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 11, 2009 1:43:52 GMT -5
Great start, I really like what you've done with her. I think 80 HP, even though she wasn't that tough, is not enough. I'd say 100 to 120 would be right. Also, if she isn't so much the fighter, why the Double/Twin/GMA combo? I think even just Twin would work, but that's just my opinion. Sorcery is perfect, Absorb maybe, and Block works (though she already has a very defensive ability in Soresu). I think Sith Rage might fit as well.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 11, 2009 15:46:13 GMT -5
I agree with RS. GMA+Double+Twin doesn't really fit, I'd say either GMA and Double or just Twin.
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Post by xpraider on Dec 11, 2009 23:08:30 GMT -5
Well its not to say that she wasn't a good fighter, she just wasn't physically strong and had to use her speed and agility to her advantage. Kind of opposite the way Bane fought.
Hence I made her a bit more fragile, and less damage per hit, but also able to defend herself better, and be a bit more of a mobile striker. Hence the double/twin with GMA. The idea being that she is similar in style to Asajj and Komari Vosa, only a bit better with the fighting style since she was raised and trained by Bane.
But I suppose we could also change her to LS assault with Twin. I have no issue bringing up her HP though.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 11, 2009 23:31:08 GMT -5
Well, I guess the question is whether you want her to be more offensive or defensive. If we go offensive, she should probably replace Block with Lightsaber Assault (removing Double, obviously). If we go defensive, she can keep Block and Soresu but lose Double. IMO, 4 attacks with Soresu and Sith Sorcery (a nasty ability) is a little much for her cost, so I would opt for the defensive route.
Thoughts?
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 12, 2009 0:01:19 GMT -5
Here's the Zannah from the "Jedi and Generals" custom set that's being worked on, see anything we could borrow from it?
Darth Zannah Cost: 40 Faction: Sith Hit Points: 90 Defense: 21 Attack: 11 Damage: 20
Special Abilities Unique, Melee Soresu Style (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) Synergy (+4 Attack while within 6 squares of Darth Bane) Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, it makes 1 extra attack against the same target)
Force Powers Force 2, Force Renewal 1 Force Grip 2 (Force 2, replaces attacks: sight; 20 damage) Lightsaber Block (Force 1: Whenever this character is hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) Sith Sorcery (Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters within 6 squares are considered activated this round; save 11)
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Post by gwek on Dec 12, 2009 2:28:31 GMT -5
Consulting Wookieepedia (I know, not always the bes source):
Darth Zannah was a left-handed master of the lightsaber combat form Soresu, becoming proficient at creating defensive barriers using her double-bladed lightsaber. This unique lightsaber allowed her to defend herself indefinitely against enemies with minimal effort, only switching to the offensive when her adversary was weakened or frustrated.[3]
To me, that sounds pretty defensive... until she wears her foe down and goes to town (Bloodthirsty, maybe?).
In the "Save the Sith" thread, I think someone suggested that she might have Cloaked or Force Cloak because of her deception abilities. I can potentially see that, if only because the Sith could really use a piece like that.
I could see her somewhat similar to Mara Jade Skywalker, but with a number of replacements, maybe something like this overall:
Hit Points: 110 Defense: 20 Attack: 12 Damage: 20
Unique Melee Attack Double Attack (or Twin?) Bloodthirsty Parry
Force 1 Force Renewal 1 Force Cloak Lightsaber Defense Sith Sorcery
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 12, 2009 9:42:06 GMT -5
I'm surprised no one's mentioned Soresu Style Mastery. Maybe it's because we've come to hate that ability. But seriously, it would fit perfectly here. Rather than giving her Soresu Style and Lightsaber Block or Parry and Lightsaber Defense, we could just go with SSM. Here's a Darth Zannah I created for my custom set, Rule of Two, that incorporates some of the abilities gwek mentioned:
Darth Zannah
Cost: 48 Hit Points: 120 Defense: 19 Attack: +13 Damage: 20
Special Abilties: Unique Melee Attack (Can attack only adjacent enemies) Double Attack (On her turn, this character can make one extra attack instead of moving) Soresu Style Mastery (When hit by an attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) Stealth (If this character has cover, she does not count as the nearest enemy for an attacker farther than 6 squares away when choosing targets)
Force Powers: Force 2 Force Renewal 1 (This character gains 1 Force point each time she activates) Sith Sorcery (Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters within 6 squares are considered activated this round, save 11) Fear (Force 1, usable only on this character's turn: range 6; Target living enemy gets -2 to all saving throws until the end of the round) Lightsaber Riposte (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character can make an immediate attack against that attacker)
"I can use my powers to conjure up your worst nightmares and bring them to life before your eyes. I can drive you mad with fear, shred your sanity, and leave you a raving lunatic for the rest of your life."
Could we work something out of this?
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Post by xpraider on Dec 12, 2009 11:40:27 GMT -5
Going back to my version really quick, another solution could also be to raise her cost to 46. Making her similar to Mara Jade, Jedi. I think there are a lot of good ideas though and for the most part her basic stats seem to be fairly consistent.
So let's pool it together a little and see if we can get a consensus.
Darth Zannah Cost: 46 HP: 110 Defense: 20 Atk: +12 Dam: 20
Special Abilities: Unique, Melee Attack, Twin Attack, Soresu Style
Force Powers: Force 2, Force Renewal 1 Sith Sorcery Lightsaber Block Lightsaber Assault Force Grip 2
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 12, 2009 12:55:37 GMT -5
I'm surprised no one's mentioned Soresu Style Mastery. Maybe it's because we've come to hate that ability. But seriously, it would fit perfectly here. Rather than giving her Soresu Style and Lightsaber Block or Parry and Lightsaber Defense, we could just go with SSM. I don't think she was that proficient with Soresu, she was still an Apprentice. (a strong one at that, though) I think normal Soresu would represent her well. As for Force Cloak, that would work pretty well (she uses it to conceal herself and Bane at one point).
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 12, 2009 14:21:39 GMT -5
I'm surprised no one's mentioned Soresu Style Mastery. Maybe it's because we've come to hate that ability. But seriously, it would fit perfectly here. Rather than giving her Soresu Style and Lightsaber Block or Parry and Lightsaber Defense, we could just go with SSM. I don't think she was that proficient with Soresu, she was still an Apprentice. (a strong one at that, though) I think normal Soresu would represent her well. As for Force Cloak, that would work pretty well (she uses it to conceal herself and Bane at one point). I think she was that good with Soresu. she may have been an Apprentice, but so were Darth Vader and Count Dooku. Anyway, I used SSM because the Wook said this: This justifies most of my piece. Soresu Style would fit, that's for sure. But Force Cloak would not, because it basically make Soresu Style useless (or at least a lot less useful) My version has Stealth, which shows her 'cloaking' ability. Sith Sorcery also shows this.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 12, 2009 15:15:11 GMT -5
Oh, forgot that cloak would essentially negate Soresu.
I suppose SSM would work, but her offense might need to be toned down even more.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
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Post by gwek on Dec 12, 2009 23:55:38 GMT -5
My thoughts begin with "Be careful of leaning too heavily on Wookieepedia." Seriously, though, what do folks think of giving her two Styles? Having checked Wookieepedia myself, I sort of like the idea that she could be a piece the wears her opponents down, so I'd sort of like to give her both Soresu and Djem So (Style, in both cases, not Mastery). I think both recent versions look good, and a combo/average of the two is probably very close to where we want to be. A few thoughts on the Force powers: While Fear is interesting, don't think we need it on her. I think the core of the character we're building is Lightsaber prowess combined with some trickery (Stealth) and Sith Sorcery... which brings me to another point. Sith Sorcery is VERY potent. Not only does it affect multiple targets, it also can be used as a "free" action. Three characters currently have it, and they call cost 60+. Unless she's going to join those ranks, I don't think she should have Force Renewal. I'd drop that and top her off at 3, possibly 4, Force points. Sure, she can always be paired with HoloSid, but then you're paying to get regular use of Sith Sorcery, which is fair.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 13, 2009 10:21:44 GMT -5
I understand that, but that excerpt was refereneced, so it has some credibility.
The problem I find here is translating her into a mini. Like you said, gwek, Sith Sorcery is amazingly potent. Giving her SSM on top of that screams GOWK-like broken (just through her into the middle of the enemy army and use Sorcery a few times while SSM keeps her alive), but that's all she can do. She also (well, my version at least) has a 19 def, pretty bad for a nearly 50 point character. So she's pretty easy to hit, and she has no MotF or Mettle, and if she uses her FP for rerolls she can't use Sorcery as much. I don't think limiting her FP when there is such an easy way to give her FR 1 is there. We can ust give her FR 1. There's no point in making her rely on a single piece to be effective.
I do see your point on the issue of FR 1, though. IF we give her SSM, I could see her with Force 5 and LS Riposte to go with Sith Sorcery. Otherwise, I think she has to have FR 1.
Fear is basically a sub-power to Sith Sorcery, Sharrakor created that one for a different character to be an interesting counter to GOWK. It could fit, but I'm not saying she needs it.
The Soresu and Djem So combo, while interesting, doesn't seem to fit for me. She wouldn't be able to defened herself properly with just Soresu. Though we could give her LS Block, of course. Still, I don't think it's too accurate to the way we've seen things in minis: while the Maul from JA does have Vaapad when he clearly used Juyo, I don't think it was possible to practice Djem So with a double-bladed lightsaber. Riposte seems to fit better, IMO.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 13, 2009 10:33:13 GMT -5
Here is my Darth Zannah, Sith Apprentice that I made months ago after finishing the Bane books.
Darth Zannah, Sith Apprentice HP 100 Def 20(being on how small she is) ATT +11 DMG 20
Unique, Melee Attack, Quad Attack (with so many people with double twin, and with her having a lightsaber like Darth Maul) I was thinking why the hell not Synergy +4 while character named Darth Bane is within 6 squares Soresu Style Stealth(Cloaked seemed to be too much, basic stealth would be easier
Force Powers (Force 2) Renewal 1 Lightsaber Sweep1 Sith Sorcery 2 Sith Grip 2
By the end of the novels she was choking characters, hence the sith grip, we don't have a Force Horror power yet or else she and Darth Bandon would have it.
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