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Post by gwek on Dec 21, 2009 9:31:15 GMT -5
I use my generator only as a starting point, and, like you, compare to similar existing characters.
In this case, I believe we're still discussing the stats, so I think it's sort of odd to set an exact number and work toward it unless there's a reason (such as fitting the piece in with certain other characters, etc).
Until we have final stats, I think discussing the exact cost is premature.
(As a sidenote: You're completely correct that the rules and guides we currently have from WotC are not static--and change with every set WotC releases. However, I feel that in order to keep the set as balanced and "realistic" as possible, at least one of us has to play devil's advocate and try to reduce the number of lines we cross... or at least make people AWARE that we're crossing a line and doing something that WotC hasn't "allowed" in the past)
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 21, 2009 9:45:07 GMT -5
Sure, we can wait for the decision on Sorcery. The difference between that and Force Stun would change the cost. A lot.
You're correct that it is good to compare with WotC, and it's good to know when we have crossed a line. I just don't feel that we've crossed one of those lines if we stay close to their guidelines (within at the most five points), instead of right on top of them.
Anyway, on more important matters, there seems to be good reasons for her to have either Sith Sorcery or Force Stun. I'll list them to make it easier for viewing:
Reasons for Sith Sorcery: -the action it entails (activating enemies) fits the description of Zannah's powers -it hasn't been specified as to whether or not Zannah's sorcery affected only one person at a time, it just sounds that way because she's only speaking to one person -the name fits (not much of a reason, but a reason at that)
Reasons for Force Stun: -activating an enemy fits the description of Zannah's powers -having it affect only a single enemy fits the description Zannah gives us of what she can do, but we have to keep the context of her description in mind
Personally, I think Sith Sorcery still fits better. As I've said, it doesn't say anywhere that her powers were limited to a single being. In fact (I think I may have already mentioned this though), when she conceals herself from those around her with the Force, she's affecting far more than one person. This may not be exactly "activating the enemies" (though one could make a case for that), but it does show that she has the power to affect multiple being at once, and that it wouldn't be beyond her to use her sorcery against more than one person at a time.
Also, based on the description of her scorcery, Jedi Mind Trick (limited range, not allowing AoOs b/c they're petrified), not Force Stun, would fit better.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 21, 2009 11:34:21 GMT -5
Another reason we wanted 48 is because of the perfect pairing with the new Bane, I believe hes 82 or 92 points.
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 21, 2009 11:48:07 GMT -5
Another reason we wanted 48 is because of the perfect pairing with the new Bane, I believe hes 82 or 92 points. What new Bane? I know the old (and only, unless you count Cad Cad Bane) one from COTF is 82 points. Are we getting a new one?
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Post by gwek on Dec 21, 2009 11:53:04 GMT -5
Another reason we wanted 48 is because of the perfect pairing with the new Bane, I believe hes 82 or 92 points. The only Bane we have right now costs 82. A "perfect pairing" would be 68... which I'd noted a while back, but which was rightfully knocked down using the "a 2-piece squad is a losing squad" argument...
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Post by gwek on Dec 21, 2009 12:02:59 GMT -5
Reasons for Sith Sorcery: -the action it entails (activating enemies) fits the description of Zannah's powers This also applies to Force Stun, or--as you point out, JMT. A moot point for this discussion. It's my understanding that we've taken the approach that our Zannah will be the Zannah from the 2nd book in the Bane trilogy. While you're correct that we don't know what she's fully capable of, to the best of my knowledge, she does not go around activating/stunning hordes of folk in that book. It is a 1-for-1 attack. If we want to accurately reflect Book 2 Zannah, then we should be looking to the capabilities demonstated in Book 2. (There was discussion earlier that doing this leaves room for a higher-powered Zannah, presumably with broader capabilities, somewhere down the line.) Weak tea, my friend. Weak tea. But in the source that we're using as our basis, I believe it IS limited to a single being. (Although I will admit I haven't read the book for a while, so I'm going primarily from the Wookieepedia summary and my faulty memory). An interesting argument, but I'd like to note that the power you're describing her is essentially Force Cloak. The book notes that Zannah masters multiple Sith Sorcery SPELLS. Given the grounding that the book and the author have in RPGs, it's not uncommon for a "passive spell" like Force Cloak to affect a far broader range of tagets than an "active spell," and generally follow different guidelines.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 21, 2009 13:42:13 GMT -5
Um, it's not weak IMO. Having the proper names for abilities is very important for characters. What would you say if Obi-Wan was given Djem So Style because it worked better with the figure than Soresu? It would be an outrage. Having the proper name for the ability is very important.
As to your comment on never seeing her stun hordes, we never saw her fight hordes, at all. She is said to be very skilled with the "stunning" Sorcery, so it could very easily be implied that it could affect multiple targets at once.
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Post by gwek on Dec 21, 2009 14:14:45 GMT -5
Um, it's not weak IMO. Having the proper names for abilities is very important for characters. What would you say if Obi-Wan was given Djem So Style because it worked better with the figure than Soresu? It would be an outrage. Having the proper name for the ability is very important. I invoke the following: 1-Cortosis Gauntlet on Zayne Carrick (who wears tydirium-phrikite vambraces) 2-Dark Armor (a term implicit to Sith characters in all virtually all other sources) on the Coruscant Guard. 3-Deceptive on the EVO Trooper (a blunt, straightforward piece) 4-It's a Trap! on... well, everyone except Admiral Ackbar. This ability is used to represent everything from Force Sight (Visas Marr and Kreia) to droid sensors (R2, Treadwell, RA-7), from mechanical read-outs (Aqualish Tech) to tactical savvy (Yularen, IS Officer, CS Officer) 5-Cunning Attack on the decidedly un-cunning Greedo. 6-Jedi Hunter on the Vornskr (an animal with no gripe against the Jedi but a talent for hunting all Force-users) and Impulsive Jedi Hunter on the EJA (based on Jaden Corr, who did not hunt Jedi at all) 7-Gregarious on Jagged Fel (who is described as anything BUT gregarious), and even the Mandalorian Quartermaster (Mando=gregarious? Really?) All of these are an example of function trumping an exactly accurate name. In this case, I would argue that giving Zannah Force Stun (or perhaps even Jedi Mind Trick) is not an inappropriate choice, and is no less correct than any of the above examples (many of which are just plain FACTUALLY wrong). We can infer all we want, but we're then creating a character that does not accurately reflect the piece as depicted in the discussed source material. Since minis are often a "shorthand" version of the character, there's very little reason to start making up extra abilities that she didn't use, when there are perfectly good ones that she DID use to be had. Further, as discussed, keeping her keyed to the second Bane book allows room for a "master level" Zannah (who might well demonstrate Sith Sorcery as depicted by WotC). Giving her WotC's "Sith Sorcery" (which does not accurately reflect her demonstrated capabilities) would create an inaccurate portrayal of the character based on the source material... apparently just so she can have the words "Sith Sorcery" on her card. I honestly don't understand what the hang-up with the term is, especially when WotC uses it in a completlely different context than Karpishyn does. If WotC has called the Force power something different, would we be having this conversation? I think not.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 21, 2009 14:27:15 GMT -5
Who's Karpishyn?
But all right, I see your point(s). So perhaps Stun would work just as well. If we went there, what about MotF?
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 21, 2009 14:31:20 GMT -5
If we went there, what about MotF? It depends on what other force powers we're looking at right now.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 21, 2009 14:35:31 GMT -5
I think we're looking at Force Stun and Lightsaber Block (unless she gets SSM). Either way, multiple Stuns reflects her mastery of "stun" Sorcery, and multiple rerolls at SSM show her proficiency with the Style.
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 21, 2009 14:42:20 GMT -5
It could work. (Though, the reason I asked was that I forgot Force Stun was the "usable on characters turn" type)
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 21, 2009 16:26:38 GMT -5
So we're going with Force Stun? Fine by me. So I think this is what we've got set in stone so far:
Darth Zannah
Cost: 48+ Hit Points: 110 Defense: 19 Attack: +11 Damage: 20
Special Abilities: Unique. Melee Attack; Double Attack Soresu Style Mastery (Stealth??)
Force Powers: Force 2 Force Renewal 1 (Master of the Force 2??) Force Stun (Lightsaber Riposte??)
What are other's opinions on her defense score, and whether or not she has Stealth, MotF, and/or LS Riposte?
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 21, 2009 17:53:08 GMT -5
Oh, we're going with Double over Twin? I guess that makes sense if she's getting Riposte. Stealth with SSM seems almost like overkill, but other opinions are needed as well. As she is, she seems a tad overcosted.
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Post by gwek on Dec 22, 2009 4:14:44 GMT -5
I would suggest that we work on her without a price for now, but keep in mind that the target we're looking for is "50-ish".
Although Stealth and SSM seems like overkill, Stealth is fairly appropriate to the character. Perhaps instead we could go with Force Cloak (also very appropriate)? Although Cloaked IS more powerful than Stealth in theory: 1) you have to pay Force points, and 2) it's not a pre-req for any commander effects that I can think of.
If someone wants to play her super-defensively, they have the option, but would need to spend the points.
I think the defense of 19 is okay. Heck, I could even see it going down to 18 if we add Stealth or Force Cloak. Thematically, many of the Sith have sort of lousy defenses. If she has SSM and either Cloaked or Stealth, I think it could represent that she's relying on trickery and skill to protect herself, which is sort of the way she was.
If we want to round out her Force powers a bit more, I'd like to suggest Force Corruption (probably at 10 or 20), representing both the debilitating effects of her power and also the corrupting "come over the the dark side" aspect of her personality.
Regardless of what we do with her, I think we should give her one or two more "gimmicks" to make her really come alive.
Synergy (either specifically with Bane, or perhaps with any other Unique Sith) might be an option, and I know various damage boosters were discussed (and I think discarded).
BTW, I may have been getting the spelling wrong, but by "Karpishyn," I meant the author of the Bane novels (who was also lead writer for the KotOR video game, I think).
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