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Post by gwek on Dec 22, 2009 13:42:33 GMT -5
While I'd really like to get her cost at 51 or higher (because of the Mastery), DG, I can get behind your last version.
If we try to factor in Force Ascetic and/or Surprise Move/Intuition, I'd need to see what we're dealing with.
(I can't believe we're on page 10! Chirpa only went to page 2... Maybe we were too lenient with him!)
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 22, 2009 15:59:14 GMT -5
Why is Evade with SSM broken? Look at the NR. With two commanders, almost all of their pieces have Evade with a free reroll, pretty much the same as with Zannah here. I see no problem with her being a follower with Stealth and SSM.
I don't think MotF is possible, because (as has been mentioned) it's broken with SSM. Force Ascetic would fix this problem, but it wouldn't really fit the character.
Surprise Move or Intuition would be fun. Probably Surprise Move, though I don't think there's a character from WotC with both Surprise Move and FR (no problem, just thought I'd point that out).
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 22, 2009 23:59:50 GMT -5
darn force users take forever to make. EDIT: Please refrain from using language.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 23, 2009 13:55:11 GMT -5
Why is Evade with SSM broken? Look at the NR. With two commanders, almost all of their pieces have Evade with a free reroll, pretty much the same as with Zannah here. I see no problem with her being a follower with Stealth and SSM. Totally agree here. Evade with SSM is only as bad as the NR (except this is only on one piece) But remember that if she starts with one force, she isn't going to have much to spend on rerolls. HoloSid won't help since she already has renewal, and she has Stun and Sorcery to spend points on. I really don't think she'll be burning her force on SSM. Even if she did, she would run out really fast. We were going to give her both I think one or the other would be enough. Probably Surprise Move, since it puts more stress on how to use her limited number of force points.
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Post by gwek on Dec 23, 2009 14:43:01 GMT -5
Guys, I understand the comparison to the New Republic, but Soresu Style Mastery paired with other abilities to increase it's effectiveness is a very touchy subject. It's what got GOWK banned.
I really feel that from both a gameplay and a thematic angle she should have Force Cloak (or Cloaked). Not only does it prevent her from getting Evade (which, if you don't agree is broken, you must surely agree is at least a potentially abusive combination with SSM), but it also reflects one of her key Force abilities (the ability to make others not see her).
Force Cloak is the best choice for her.
I'm not opposed to giving her Surprise Move (actually, I'd be fairly happy with that, because I think the addition would raise her to above 50--probably around 52 or 53, given the synergy with her other defensive abilities), but the power was brought up as part of the discussion around Force Ascetic.
Do we want to give her Surprise Move if she doesn't have Force Ascetic? (Personally, I'm fine with it, but it seems that some of the conversation shifted when we went from page 9 to page 10).
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 23, 2009 15:08:03 GMT -5
I'm fine with Cloaked. As I've said earlier, the more options she has to spend her FP on, the less of a problem SSM rerolls become. I'm totally against Force Ascetic. Surprise Move would bump her to 50+? Really? Let's bring back all the stats and see where we're really at.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 23, 2009 16:35:52 GMT -5
But remember that if she starts with one force, she isn't going to have much to spend on rerolls. HoloSid won't help since she already has renewal, and she has Stun and Sorcery to spend points on. I really don't think she'll be burning her force on SSM. Even if she did, she would run out really fast. You're correct, I just still have memories of GOWK. It was more the combo of MotF 2 + Mettle with SSM that was broken, not just MotF 2 with SSM. Since she'll be burning FP nearly as fast as Yoda of Dagobah in a Rebel Mobile-Push squad, I could see it on her, and it would definitely bump her to 50+, where Gwek thinks she should be. How did you get that we were going to give her both out of that? Lol. I also agree that Surprise Move is much more fitting and startegic, but we have to be careful with how many Force powers we give her. gwek:How is Evade more abusive than Cloaked? I'm so confused.... One requires cover, but is (arguably) twice as effective. In the hands of a good/experienced player, Cloaked is far better than Evade. I prefer Stealth just because, to me, Cloaked seems way over the top. Cloaked and SSM are two of, if not the best defensive abilities in the game. And Stealth creates a fun dynamic with Sith Sorcery (or Force Stun in this case), in that you will probably have to send your characters within 6 of Zannah, where they are vulnerable to stunning (or corrupting, etc.). While Cloaked may fit better in terms of character accuracy, well, you know what I'm going to say, and we've already been down this road multiple times with this character.
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Post by fardreamer on Dec 23, 2009 19:32:19 GMT -5
Stealth is a bad idea because of the Vigos.
We don't really want zannah to have stealth/evade/GMA do we?
Yes, Cloaked is wickedly good. But, you need cover to use it, and it can't be used to boost her into the realms of the ridiculous.
If she's going to have SSM (which is very dangerous btw) I would give her 5 force points and no renewal. I know she can get renewal from holosid, but that adds 11 points to her cost, which is probably ok.
If she's like this:
Darth Zannah Cost: 50 Faction: Sith Hit Points: 100 Defense: 19 Attack: 11 Damage: 20
Unique. Melee Attack; Double Attack Soresu Style Mastery Synergy (+4 Attack and +4 Defense while an allied character whose name contains Darth Bane is within 6 squares)
Force 5 Force Cloak Force Corruption 2 Force Stun Surprise Move
I think that's a pretty good piece, and balanced
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 23, 2009 19:37:56 GMT -5
Wow I am so confused now, this has taken over 10 pages now to do. All I am going to say is I apologize for my crude language in my last post, didn't realize the "D" word was bad. We should keep to character accuracy as much as possible, IE making her opponents come in close for her to use her sorcery and then strike them down with her lightsaber.
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Post by xpraider on Dec 23, 2009 20:07:56 GMT -5
Ok, I just lost a long post about Zannah. So I'm going to have to make another. But basically I think we should go with Stealth over Cloaked.
I have 2 reasons. The first being the cost to boost her. It would cost 38 points to give her Evade and GMA, or 20 to give her Evade, whereas it would cost 11 to give the other version renewal (and she'll start out at 4-5 fps rather than 1-2). The second is that while evade and SSM are a nasty combo, at best she'll have an 87.5% (75% other wise) chance of avoiding damage from both saves and a reroll, whereas the cloaked version can't even be targeted if she has cover.
As for the comparison between her and GOWK, GOWK also have MoTF 2 (which Zannah shouldn't have), Mettle, and a very effective CE.
So here's another version of Zannah with some changes you guys have been talking about, and I'll give some reasoning as well.
Darth Zannah Cost: (To be determined) HP: 100 Def: 19 Atk: 11 Dam: 20 Special Abilities: Unique, Melee Attack, Twin Attack, Stealth, Soresu Style Mastery Force Powers: Force 1, Force Renewal 1 Force Stun Force Corruption 20 Suprise Move
Okay. The first thing I did was NOT include synergy with Bane. While he did train and raise her, he wasn't training her to work with him or be able to complement his power. He was raising he to eventually kill him, and both of them knew it as well. I don't feel its an appropriate ability.
I gave her twin to help deal with the problem of her gaining GMA. If she had double, then yes GMA would be a nasty ability for her, but with twin it's no real different than her gaining mobile. The only difference would be if she had double as well, which would require Krayt at 72 points. I can live with he requiring a 72 point figure to get really effective.
I also kept her HPs a 100 to try and make her a bit fragile, especially with a defense of 19 and no duelist, which will also help with dealing with her SSM, and 11 attack can be boosted by Malak, but again you'd be spending 49 points to do it.
As for the FPs, I think both corruption and Stun represent her abilities with the Force, and Surprise move represents her ability to maneuver herself into position.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 23, 2009 20:11:35 GMT -5
Hmm...I like it...I guess the only thing others are going to say is that she can get evade with the Twilek if we give her stealth but Im ok with it.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 23, 2009 22:15:54 GMT -5
That's absolutely beautiful. It's almost exactly what I had in mind (with some minor differences, since I could go either way on Cloak/Stealth)
For this verison, I really don't see her cost being over the mid-40's which is (ding ding!) right where a good majority of us wanted her. She's got lots of survivability, but low HP and defense. She also can't really abuse SSM rerolls because she lacks the force points to do so (and has lots of juicy powers to spend them on). No MotF 2 is fine.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 24, 2009 9:53:13 GMT -5
Good job here. I like this version, maybe even better than my own. I think you nailed it with this version. I agree with RS on the cost, somewhere between 43 and 46 would be good. fardreamer: While Zannah with Evade and GMA on top of SSM and Stealth is very powerful, there isn't much synergy with the Vigos in a Sith squad (other than the TBSV with Lumiya), so it would likely (IMO) be an ineffective squad design to spend the 38 points to give her those abilities, like xpraider mentioned. I'm not saying it's not possible, it just doesn't seem practical to me. Especially when the Rebels can give their whole squad Evade and GMA (very cheaply too). That's a very good piece you have there, but by looking at it I don't get the "Zannah feeling" (however that can be described...). Other than SSM and Synergy, you could use that as basis for a few other Sith Lords. All that said, I think we're finally nearing the end of the Zannah discussion. Gwek, what are your thoughts? Anyone else have something to add?
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 24, 2009 12:35:14 GMT -5
I know, really! 10 (almost 11 now) pages of discussion, and one member finally posts a set of stats that at least 2 of us can agree on. GWEk?
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Post by gwek on Dec 24, 2009 21:24:59 GMT -5
It could just be that I'm tired, but I think she looks good. With respect to pricing, I agree that mid-40s seems a reasonable place, but I'd like to bring up Darth Talon, another Sith with Twin Attack and Stealth. Talon costs 56, has +10 HP, +1 Defense (same Attack and Damage). Talon does not have SSM, but instead has Loner and Mobile Attack. Both have Force 1, with Force Renewal, but while Zannah has Force Stun, Force Corruption, and Surprise Move, Talon had Force Bubble and Force Lightning. I'm okay with pricing Zannah a bit more aggressively than Talon (because I think Talon is, on the whole, overpriced), but I'm not sure if a difference of 10-12 points is warranted. Looking at them quickly, my feeling is that Zannah (despite slightly lower stats) is actually the better piece of the two in most circumstances. I'm not raising this to start a big pricing war, but I did want to bring the core similarity to (and potential pricing discrepancy with) Darth Talon to everyone's attention.
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