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Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 23:29:20 GMT -5
In most other sources, Soresu is primarily based around blocking RANGED attacks:
Very different than what we see Zannah use (and, perhaps more important, very different from what Bane TEACHES her).
What you're describing is a legitimate depiction of Soresu mastery (as Kenobi demonstrates on the Death Star, for example).
I guess what I'm saying in a roundabout way is that SSM might reflect what we see of Zannah in the book, but that "just" Soresu (with it's emphasis on deflecting blaster bolts) does not.
Star Wars minis has done a good job capturing the flavor of the style.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 19, 2009 0:32:01 GMT -5
I think the reason Bane keeps referring to melee attacks is because that's primarily who she needed lots of training to fight, Jedi. Either way, Soresu does fit her best. It says that she was capable of creating a defensive barrier that blocked pretty much all attacks, including ranged ones.
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Post by xpraider on Dec 19, 2009 0:58:42 GMT -5
That talk from Bane is actually the reason I put opportunist on the 60+ point version of her as well. To represent her defensive nature and only attacking once the enemy has expended themselves.
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Post by gwek on Dec 19, 2009 2:13:58 GMT -5
I think the reason Bane keeps referring to melee attacks is because that's primarily who she needed lots of training to fight, Jedi. Either way, Soresu does fit her best. It says that she was capable of creating a defensive barrier that blocked pretty much all attacks, including ranged ones. Her primary focus (at least in the 2nd book) sems to be on defending vs melee. That's what she's trained for, and that's what she does most often and most memorably (I honestly don't remember her defensive capabilities vs ranged being anything other than those of a standard Jedi/Sith). If we're going to give her Soresu, and we want to be accurate and true to the character, she should have Mastery, not the regular version. SSM correctly reflects the character from the book. Regular Soresu does not. That talk from Bane is actually the reason I put opportunist on the 60+ point version of her as well. To represent her defensive nature and only attacking once the enemy has expended themselves. I could also see Bloodthirsty, which does extra damage to an opponent at half HP or lower. That would reflect the "wearing them down" aspect of it.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 19, 2009 7:27:01 GMT -5
If we start adding Opportunist and bloodthirsty and SSM we are looking back at 60+ points again, I thought we were trying to avoid that.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 19, 2009 13:12:04 GMT -5
Exactly. Let's keep her as a support piece. In order for her to stay that way, she probably shouldn't get any damage boosters. Just Melee and Twin. gwek So you now say that SSM would work best. Everyone knows she has to have Sorcery. So does this mean you're alright with having both on her? (and not bumping her to some 60+ points)
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 19, 2009 13:19:14 GMT -5
I'm not going to go through and quote multiple posts, so this may seem confusing, but here goes: saber1: While Stealth and SSM may seem to make her harder to kill than GOWK, she does NOT have MotF 2, nor does she have Mettle, and she also does not have arguably the best CE in the history of the game. She also has a lower defense score. GOWK is still much more difficult to kill (as is his support). I'd say she's about as hard to kill as GaW FlObi, who only has Force 5 with no FR, but does have Mettle and Flight (almost as good as Stealth at times), and has a higher defense score. Now supporting the choice of SSM over SS and LS Block and my support for version 1 over 2: From a character accuracy standpoint, ALL Jedi/Sith should have Soresu Style (the basic). Shooting at a Jedi in SW is basically considered suicide. Obviously, this cannot be moved into SWM without making shooters unplayable. As has been said, Zannah is protrayed as an exceptional defensive duelist. So Parry/Makashi Mastery/the one half of SSM makes sense for her. The other half of SSM could be considered to come from the fact that she's not attacking, and any Jedi who chooses to do so (almost any Force user who wields a lightsaber learns some aspects of Soresu) would be able to easily deflect most blaster fire, at the very least 50% of it. As a practioner of Soresu, Zannah would be able to deflect blaster fire better than an average Jedi. This pretty much justifies the use of SSM. Also, version 1 has LS Riposte, showing her nature of "wearing down" an opponent with constant defense and striking only when there was an opening in her enemy's defense. This also has the side effect of encouraging her to spend her Force points on SSM rerolls and Sith Sorcery uses. My thoughts on damage boosters: I say no to any of them, no matter how situational, because as darthgrievous said it's going to make the cost shoot up. The only ones I'd support would be Force power-based ones (such as Sith Rage - probably not appropriate, or LS Riposte - which can be considered a damage booster in some ways), because they require the expenditure of Zannah's valuable Force points.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 20, 2009 9:55:17 GMT -5
yea what he said at a cost of 48 points so that Bane and her are a team...perhaps a Dynamic Duo even.
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Post by Jm419 on Dec 20, 2009 11:08:19 GMT -5
Wow. You guys have been busy since I've been away. Now, I just read a long, long thread - and didn't learn much. Can I see an updated version of this piece, or at least a rough working version? There were three or four versions being discussed early on - what is the base piece we're working with?
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Post by gwek on Dec 20, 2009 15:01:35 GMT -5
gwek So you now say that SSM would work best. Everyone knows she has to have Sorcery. So does this mean you're alright with having both on her? (and not bumping her to some 60+ points) What I'm saying his this: 1) Soresu Style Mastery accurately reflects the character as depicted in the book. 2) Style masteries should only be on high-end characters (based on precedent so far, 51+). 3) While I have no objection to Zannah having the words "Sith Sorcery" appear somewhere on her card, WotC's Sith Sorcery power bears no resemblence to what she does. To give her the existing Sith Sorcery would be to create an inaccurate representation of Zannah's capabilities. Force Stun, despite the name, is an accurate representation. Arguably, Force Corruption as well. ***** Please don't get hung up on the words "Sith Sorcery." Much as I dislike using Wookieepedia as a primary source, strongly encourage folks to head over there to read up on Sith Sorcery and its various depictions. Karpishyn uses these words to represent something entirely different (and much broader) than WotC does. In the Bane books, the term "Sith Sorcery" represents a wide range of spells with completely different effects. Thus, you could have three different characters who are masters of Sith sorcery, none of whom have overlapping capabilities (and none of whom would be statted with the WotC Force power called "Sith Sorcery"). To create the most accurate depiction of Zannah (from the 2nd book, I haven't read the first one yet), she should have Soresu Style Mastery, but should not have Sith Sorcery. If you want her to have any ability called Sith Sorcery, we should create a new special ability or Force power that reflects her actual capabilities. I'd suggest perhaps something like this: Master of Sith Sorcery (When a character makes a save to avoid any effect from a Force power, the target rolls twice and must take the lower result)or Sith Sorcery Mastery (Targets get -4 on their saves to avoid effects of this character's Force powers)Give her Force Stun and Force Corruption 10 or 20 (both of which would repesent some of the different Sith Sorcery "spells" she mastered, and would be improved by the above special ability). Give her SSM. Price her in the low 50s. Balance other abilities accordingly. ***** In general, and except where there may be a specific conflict already noted, I agree with BH's recent comments.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 20, 2009 22:43:07 GMT -5
Gwek does bring up a good point. Though I find the need to point out that in no canonical source is it ever mentioned that Zannah's power's were limited to affecting a single entity at a certain time. In fact, when it says that she "masked her presence with the Force" - this means that she's affecting more than one person. One could make a case for Sith Sorcery (the ability, not the name) being appropriate, though it would be pretty loose.
The suggestion of swapping Sith Sorcery in favour of one of the Sith Sorcery Masteries and Force Corruption and Force Stun is extremely interesting. It would be a very good synergy of abilities around which to centre a character, but I still feel that they fit Zannah and the descriptions of her powers pretty loosely.
What are other's opinions on this?
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 20, 2009 23:58:42 GMT -5
As you've said yourself, lets attempt to refrain from making new abilities and jsut find the "right combination of existing abilities" to create the character.
As I've said in a previous post, Sorcery does reflect her abilities as seen in the book. Although it has only been seen to affect one target at a time, it does have a stunning effect (which is obviously true of the ability)
Also, your "precedent" of 51 points for Mastery is very, very close to the cost we're looking at (around 48).
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 21, 2009 0:28:56 GMT -5
Ok so it seems we definately want to stay away from a new force power, but if we decide to make one Force/Sith Horror would be the one to use. I could see corruption 20, that wouldnt be bad at all.
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Post by gwek on Dec 21, 2009 1:39:18 GMT -5
As you've said yourself, lets attempt to refrain from making new abilities and jsut find the "right combination of existing abilities" to create the character. Okay, then let's give her Force Stun instead of Sith Sorcery. So it sounds like we can agree that if we were creating custom abilities, what Zannah would have is basically "Sith Sorcery 1", which would affect only one target at a time. Here is the description of Sith Sorcery: Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters within 6 squares are considered activated this round; save 11 If we "downgrade" that to a single target, it becomes: Force 1, usable only on this character's turn: range 6; target enemy is considered activated this round; save 11 With the exception of 1 word ("living"), Sith Sorcery 1 and Force Stun are identical. How did you arrive at 48? (I know I've seen the number before, but not the rationale...).
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 21, 2009 9:22:47 GMT -5
As you've said yourself, lets attempt to refrain from making new abilities and jsut find the "right combination of existing abilities" to create the character. Okay, then let's give her Force Stun instead of Sith Sorcery. So it sounds like we can agree that if we were creating custom abilities, what Zannah would have is basically "Sith Sorcery 1", which would affect only one target at a time. Here is the description of Sith Sorcery: Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters within 6 squares are considered activated this round; save 11 If we "downgrade" that to a single target, it becomes: Force 1, usable only on this character's turn: range 6; target enemy is considered activated this round; save 11 With the exception of 1 word ("living"), Sith Sorcery 1 and Force Stun are identical. How did you arrive at 48? (I know I've seen the number before, but not the rationale...). My Darth Zannah had a cost of 48, which is (I think) the only version with Soresu Style Mastery that has been posted. The rationale behind it is that she has SSM, and synergized combo of Stealth and Sith Sorcery. Other than that, she's not very good at anything. I don't use a costing generator, I just look at the piece, compare it to a few similar pieces from WotC (though that's more difficult to do here) and put a number up. My strategy isn't perfect, especially with non-Uniques, but it generally works out very well. What's the difference between 48 and 51? An Uggie? Another Mouse Droid? Honestly, we've seen five characters from WotC with Style masteries, the lowest of which being 51. What's to say they won't go a couple of points below that? That would be like going back in time to the first five seasons of Major League Baseball, and saying, "Nobody's hit more than 17 home runs in a season yet, so no one's ever going to hit more."
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