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Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 12:56:18 GMT -5
You're correct that WotC has not explicitly stated anything. However, there are clear patterns in their game design method.
I signed up to work on the NL20 project specifically for game balance and to try to ensure that our pieces feel as much like "real" pieces as possible. I would be remiss in the responsibilities I volunteered for if I did not do my level best to make sure we're following the same guidelines that WotC applies to their own pieces, explicit or not. At times, that means I have to lean toward being conservative.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no ability with such broad anti-activation powers on any piece priced at below 60. Given that such abilities were created quite some time ago (as early as the 3rd or 5th set) and they haven't cropped up on cheaper pieces in later sets (which contain hundreds and hundreds of characters), I have to assume that WotC has made that decision intentionally, and respectfully submit that we should follow their example.
Now, to be honest, I'm sick of arguing about Sith Sorcery. So how about we figure out where we're pricing her. People are still talking about 40s, 50s, and 60s.
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Post by xpraider on Dec 18, 2009 13:33:49 GMT -5
I'm fine with keeping her in the 60s, but I would like to see her play tested to make sure she's not underpowered and she'll be a good asset to the Sith.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 18, 2009 16:07:27 GMT -5
Most seem like they want to keep Zannah undeer 50, so I think we should do that.
No offense, gwek, but your thoughts on Sith Sorcery being on only highly-priced characters and us not allowed to go under 51 with a Style Mastery (even a few points), are both only your opinion. As has already been said, WotC has not explicitly stated that there will not be a character under 51 points with a Style Mastery or a character under 60 with Sith Sorcery.
And gwek, everyone who has commented on here says she will have Sith Sorcery, you're the only one against it, so as of now it stays even if she's under 60 points.
And really, there are no clear patterns in game design with Style Masteries and Sith Sorcery, when there are less than a half-dozen characters with one of those abilities. Before these 40-piece sets from WotC, I would have agreed with you, but not know that certain "guidelines" have been obliderated with some pieces (see GOWK, Rieekan, The Jedi Exile, GMLS, Mouse Droids, Kyp Durron, Captain Rex, Loathesome, Dash Rendar, Renegade Smuggler, etc., etc.).
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Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 16:34:47 GMT -5
Okay, so let's see how she looks as an under-50 piece.
*****
I have a flavor vs function question on Sith Sorcery, however. I understand that most people want to see her have Sith Sorcery (and my gripe from the beginning has been with the power as described by WotC). It's been a while since I've read "Rule of Two" (and it seems that our Zannah will basically be the Ro2 Zannah), so I've had to resort to Wookieepedia.
In Wookieepedia, although Zannah IS described as adept at Sith Sorcery, Sith Sorcery is, itself, described as a very broad series of diverse powers.
Here's what Wookieepedia has to say on her abilities specifically:
If that's an accurate depiction of the range of abilities she demonstrates in the book, it has little FUNCTIONALLY to do with WotC's Sith Sorcery, which involves the ability to stun or paralyze a large group of people. This seems analogous to the following:
Wookieepedia lists no fewer than a dozen different applications of Sith Sorcery, which are quite diverse in function.
Now, as I've said, it's been a while since I've read Ro2, but I don't recall Zannah being able to "mentally induce paralysis" in a large group of people. If that is true, giving her WotC's Sith Sorcery--based solely on the name--would give her a capability that she didn't have.
Based on the Wookieepedia description, the particular brand of Sith Sorcery that she knew seems best replicated by Force Cloak, and some sort of "fear" ability (either something new, or perhaps Force Stun and/or Force Corruption), NOT by the big ol' web of activation.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 18, 2009 17:06:25 GMT -5
Okay, I think we have two separate versions (I'm modding them slightly to keep up with the suggestions we've had):
1. Darth Zannah (SSM version)
Cost: high 40s Hit Points: 110 Defense: 19 Attack: +11 Damage: 20
Special Abilities: Unique. Melee Attack; Double Attack Soresu Style Mastery Stealth
Force Powers: Force 2 Force Renewal 1 Sith Sorcery Lightsaber Riposte
2. Darth Zannah (Soresu Style/LS Block version)
Cost: mid 40s Hit Points: 110 Defense: 20 Attack: +11 Damage: 20
Special Abilities: Unique. Melee Attack; Double Attack[or Twin Attack] Soresu Style
Force Powers: Force 2 Force Renewal 1 Sith Sorcery Lightsaber Block Force Grip 2
I think those are the two versions we're looking at. I'm leaning more towards the first version, with Soresu Style Mastery, because it provides total defense which I think is more suiting than Soresu Style and LS Block, which makes Zannah vulnerable to shooters that base her.
What are other's opinions on this? Post which version you like better (and why), and any suggestions on improving the two versions I posted above.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 18, 2009 17:30:35 GMT -5
Here's a quote from Zannah: "I can use my powers to conjure up your worst nightmares and bring them to life before your eyes. I can drive you mad with fear, shred your sanity, and leave you a raving lunatic for the rest of your life."
Seems like a stunning effect to be sure, it drives them mad (for a round in game).
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As for the two versions we have, I'm not sure which I like more. SSM seems rather powerful, but accurately represents the character. Hmm...
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 18, 2009 18:04:28 GMT -5
Like I said who knows how many posts ago...we dont have a force fear, therefore sorcery fits best. IMO we should use version 2 with SS and block and the extra nice force power Sith Grip.
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Post by saber1 on Dec 18, 2009 19:05:26 GMT -5
SSM will almost certainly demand a higher cost than the SS/LSB route. Also, LSB (and Grip) will dictate judicious use of FPs and thus keep her more balanced. As to SSM, the addition of Stealth in conjunction to Renewal will make her even more of a pain to kill than GOWK. Therefore, for the sake of the GOWK haters out there, and the reasons listed above, I vote for version two.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 18, 2009 19:14:00 GMT -5
Thats two votes for version 2 thus far.
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Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 22:23:20 GMT -5
Like I said who knows how many posts ago...we dont have a force fear, therefore sorcery fits best. IMO we should use version 2 with SS and block and the extra nice force power Sith Grip. But the excerpt appears to be a single, targeted Force power (affecting an individual) while Sith Sorcery affects a massive group. I submit that Force Stun is a closer analog.
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Post by saber1 on Dec 18, 2009 22:32:23 GMT -5
If we go with Force Stun, I'd like to see Synergy with Bane added. Actually, I'd like to see it added either way, but even more if Sorcery is swapped out for Stun.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 18, 2009 22:33:47 GMT -5
Agree
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Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 22:44:04 GMT -5
I'm checking out Wookieepedia, and there appears to be a discrepancy between the way Soresu is depicted in Star Wars mins and the way Soresu is depicted in the Darth Bane novels. The conventional description of Soresu is that it centers around blocking/reflecting blaster attacks (although it can be applied in melee, that's not the primary thrust). This jibes quite well with Soresu as described in Star wars minis: a style practitioner has excellent defense against ranged attacks, while a master can apply that to melee as well. Now, here are a series of quotes from the Darth Bane novels concerning Bane's training of Zannah in Soresu: To me, the implication is that he's talking about defending against melee combat. Here, he's explicitly talking about melee and not ranged attacks. A blaster shot does not "expend precious energy with each blow" (well, okay, from the energy cell of the blaster, yes...). Again, this implies that Bane is training her to fight defensively in melee combat. In the battle against the Jedi near the end of the book, we see the application of this. I think that the author may have assigned the wrong name to the style. ***** Ultimately, my point with Soresu (mastery or not) is that if we follow the NAME of the ability, we're potentially creating a character that doesn't match the capabilities of the character in the book. Indeed, despite the name assigned to her lightsaber style in the book, her fighting style is FUNCTIONALLY closer to Djem So or Makashi. Personally, if I'm going to choose between a character who is functionally accurate (ie, depicts the way the character behaves and performs in his or her appearances) vs one who is "factually accurate (ie, happens to have the right names on the card, even if they bear little resemblence to the actual character's capabilities), I'd go with the former.
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Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 22:45:27 GMT -5
Look, guys, I know it looks like I'm trying to be a jerk with Zannah. I'm really not. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate and get us to an accurate depiction of the character.
Sorry for being a particular spoiler on this one...
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Post by saber1 on Dec 18, 2009 23:01:20 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying about the styles. Since the author never put Zannah up against shooters, all we have is her dueling Jedi. My understanding of Soresu is that it is all defense until you find an opening, usually after the opponent tires, and capitalizing. Djem So, on the other hand, is all about counter-attacking at every turn. Parry, counter, parry counter, attack, parry, counter, block, etc. Soresu is more parry, block, parry, parry, block, parry, counter, etc. But that's simply how I read things.
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