|
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 12, 2009 14:13:55 GMT -5
That Squad Spirit idea is really cool. It may be more powerful, but I like where you're going with it. Making it a unique thing is a good idea. I'll post a Lord Hoth here combining xpraider's Hoth with gwek's suggestions:
Lord Hoth
Cost: 72 Hit Points: 150 Defense: 21 Attack: +16 Damage: 20
Special Abilities: Unique Melee Attack Triple Attack Lightsaber Duelist Rapport (Characters with a Force rating cost 1 less to include in a squad with this character)
Force Powers: Force 3 Force Renewal 1 Master of the Force 2 Lightsaber Defense Lightsaber Riposte Lightsaber Precision
Commander Effect: Allied Old Republic characters are treated as having the same name as each other, only for the purpose of special abilities whose name contains Squad. Allies gain Evade and Squad Spirit (Each time this character activates while 3 or more allies with the same name as this character are within 6 squares, he gains a Force point).
What do you guys think?
|
|
|
Post by Roque Saber on Dec 12, 2009 15:17:00 GMT -5
Army of Light should be in the CE if that's what it does. There's no real point in making a new ability when that sort of thing has already been done as a CE. He's getting better and better, good job everyone.
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Dec 12, 2009 23:34:20 GMT -5
RS is right about Army of Light--I've been away from the boards for too long! I'm getting sloppy!
BH, I like what you've pulled together, but I have a few thoughts.
First, although the current Hoth is definitely worth 70+ points, we might want to bring him down a little to make him more playable. I expect he'll remain the most expensive Old Rep piece (at, say, 60+), but a little cheaper would be better in my opinion.
Although I think Lightsaber Duelist is appropriate, I wouldn't mind seeing it go, if we need to cut a little to shave some points.
Similarly, I'm on the fence with Triple Attack. I like it on him, but I also know that cutting it would drop his cost by a considerable amount (and with the Exile, he can get Extra Attack).
I'd like to consider dropping Affinity, and possibly replacing it with Rapport (for characters with a Force rating). Let's be honest, at this point, the Affinity pulls in a lot of crappy characters, plus the JWM and the EJA. One of my pet peeves with the Old Republic is that the Uniques face too much competition from the non-Uniques. This just makes it worse!
Replacing with Rapport would reduce the cost of Younglings to 4, which means that a Hoth squad would almost certainly be stacked with Younglings to help get bring Squad Spirit into play--and I think that feels very much like the last days of the Army of Light did.
With respect to the Force powers, we may want to lower his starting FPs to 2, or even 1. Although I'm okay with MotF because he's so experienced, he's not generally depicted as a Force powerhouse. (And, again, anything that lowers his cost by a point or two isn't a bad thing).
The Force powers themselves look good, although if we get official spoilers and phrasing for some of the new Force powers, we might want to consider replacing Lightsaber Precision with one of the new Force powers that allows you to do extra damage on each attack but at a cost (either taking damage afterward, or becoming Savage, in either case, on a failed save).
I know this seems like a lot of criticism, but I really like where we've got him overall.
|
|
|
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 13, 2009 10:08:25 GMT -5
The only reason I made Army of Light an SA was because this guy's CE would turn into a novel if it was part of it. We can do that, but because we have to define Squad Spirit as part of the CE is may take up half the card. But that's an easy change, if you guys think it would be best.
I don't think we should cut the cost if it makes him less effective. I am in favour of switching the Affinity for Rapport, and lowering his starting Force points. I don't think we drop either Triple Attack or Lightsaber Duelist. We shouldn't make the mini "not like him" just to make him cost less. I thought we were going for a middle ground in terms of that: making the minis represent the characters well AND make them a playable piece for their faction.
That suicide damage boost thing that we're supposed to be getting in DT is interesting, but I'm not sure how well it would fit on Hoth. It might fit better than on someone like Nomi Sunrider, but it seems like something the Sith would do - pushing themselves to the limit and risking everything, while a Jedi wouldn't risk betraying their allies or going insane to enhance their offensive prowess for a short time. That's the way I see it, anyway.
But, the more thought we put into him the better he becomes, so keep the comments coming everybody.
|
|
|
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 13, 2009 10:27:03 GMT -5
Wow he is really evolving and probably the most talked about piece in the NLT. I wish Lord Khan had made the cut to go with Hoth but oh well. I agree that his force should start out as 2, and we must keep something involving Army of Light. Sith Hunter was cool, its limited but just as fun as Mando Hunter.
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Dec 13, 2009 23:46:21 GMT -5
I don't think we should cut the cost if it makes him less effective. I am in favour of switching the Affinity for Rapport, and lowering his starting Force points. I don't think we drop either Triple Attack or Lightsaber Duelist. We shouldn't make the mini "not like him" just to make him cost less. I thought we were going for a middle ground in terms of that: making the minis represent the characters well AND make them a playable piece for their faction. I agree. My point, though, is that the lines between Double vs Triple and Lightsaber Duelist vs just a high defense are pretty fine ones. I think we could easily get away without those things on Hoth, if we wanted to lower his cost. Apparently, there are three different damage boosters. On a failed save, you are either defeated, gain Savage, or take 20 damage (20 HP, I think). Given Hoth's desperation and obsession with winning, I could see either of the last two options being potentially viable. I haven't read "Jedi vs Sith" for a while, but if I recall correctly, he was willing to sacrifice his whole army so long as the Sith were also defeated. I think either of the last two options might be in line with that mindset. I was also looking for a way to make Lord Hoth a true beatstick (and Sith Rage seems inappropriate...). Consider Hoth with any of these +10 damage attacks. He can dish out 90 damage in an activation. Pair in with the Exile, and that goes up to 120. Pair him with Nomi, and he gains Mettle to help offset a bad saving throw. Mechanically speaking, I think it provides some nice synergistic options within the faction, while also making him a very unique piece. Give it some thought.
|
|
|
Post by saber1 on Dec 14, 2009 11:26:17 GMT -5
If I may, I'd like to suggest the following for Army of Light:
Army of Light (This character may not be in a Sith squad. This character can spend its own Force points once per turn and spend Force points from a character with Army of Light once per turn)
I made this for the Army of Light Jedi custom in my custom set Jedi & Generals (feel free to take a look and comment in the custom sets forum). It prevents my Saul Karath from pulling certain characters into the Sith faction with his affinity/reserves and borrows from the Hand of the Emperor SA.
|
|
|
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 14, 2009 13:27:07 GMT -5
gwek: I think Triple shoud stay, because other than LS Precision (which isn't very economical to use twice per turn) and LS Riposte (requires him to be attacked first), that's his only form of damage output, and a 60+ point combat/commander focused Jedi should be able to deal out some good damage while standing still. But it doesn't matter to me whether he has a 22/23 def or 21 with LS Duelist, I think either would fit. Isn't there one were you get Betrayed if you fail the save too? Or maybe I'm thinking of another new SA. Anyways, the last one (where he would take damage) might work well (having a Savage commander would be awkward, IMO), if we want to give him that instead of LS Precision. Do we have a name for these SAs yet? saber1: While that is an interesting SA in a custom set, where there would be more characters with Army of Light/non-Uniques with it, I don't think it would make too much sense to give it to Lord Hoth if no other characters have it, IMO. EDIT: I've updated the Hoth at the top of this page to reflect the decisions we've made so far. I'll leave out the damage boosting thing gwek suggested until we get a name for it.
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Dec 14, 2009 15:10:21 GMT -5
I'm okay with Triple staying. Was just sort of playing devil's advocate. Myself, I think I'd prefer to see him without LS Duelist, if only so we can open up a little more room on the card (because if any of these guys don't fit on a standard WotC using standard font sizes, it's back to the drawing board!) With respect to the new damage booster powers, apparently they are: Dispassionate Killer (Force 1: +4 Attack & +20 Damage until the end of turn. Make a save of 11 at the end of turn. If it fails, this character is immediately defeated.) Indiscriminate Rage (Force 1: +2 Attack & +10 Damage until the end of this character's turn. At the end of that turn, make a save of 11; if the save fails, this character gains Savage) Dark Tempatation (results in Betrayed) I have no idea where the one about taking damage came from! I must have made it up! So... can we use it? How about: Obsessive Focus (Force 2: +2 Attack & +10 Damage until the end of this character's turn. At the end of that turn, make a save of 11; if the save fails, this character takes 30 damage)
|
|
|
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 14, 2009 19:07:33 GMT -5
I agree on LS Duelist, it's probably the best thing to drop if we give him an extra point or two of defense.
Sure, we can make a new one. I would suggest a new name, something like Reckless Rage (probably without the alliteration), but I think 20 damage instead of 30 would be good for the damage at the end of the turn. And why does it cost 2 Force? Not a problem, just wondering.
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Dec 14, 2009 21:07:19 GMT -5
Just fiddling with numbers...
On the drive home, I was thinking of other variations. I came with another possible option that could be either a special ability or a Force power. Something like:
All-Out Assault: Each attack against an adjacent target this turn does +10 damage if it hits. If the attack misses, the target can make an attack of opportunity.
I'm on the fence about giving him a newly invented special ability or Force power. I sort of want him to have a damage booster to be a true powerhouse, but we need to be careful about making up too much new stuff.
|
|
|
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 15, 2009 16:40:39 GMT -5
That's a really cool ability. I like it, even more than the other damage booster we had. Other's thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by Roque Saber on Dec 15, 2009 17:50:31 GMT -5
Well, let's stay away from making new powers and abilities if we can.
That Squad Spirit idea is really cool. It may be more powerful, but I like where you're going with it. Making it a unique thing is a good idea. I'll post a Lord Hoth here combining xpraider's Hoth with gwek's suggestions:
Lord Hoth
Cost: 60s (probably low to mid) Hit Points: 150 Defense: 22-23 Attack: +16 Damage: 20
Special Abilities: Unique Melee Attack Triple Attack Lightsaber Duelist? Rapport (Characters with a Force rating cost 1 less to include in a squad with this character)
Force Powers: Force 3 Force Renewal 1 Master of the Force 2 Lightsaber Defense Lightsaber Riposte Lightsaber Precision Offensive Force Power?
Commander Effect: Allied Old Republic characters are treated as having the same name as each other, only for the purpose of special abilities whose name contains Squad. Allies gain Evade and Squad Spirit (Each time this character activates while 3 or more allies with the same name as this character are within 6 squares, he gains a Force point).
How's it looking?
|
|
|
Post by Dendrite on Dec 15, 2009 17:57:42 GMT -5
For Offensive Force Power...maybe Force Thrust or Lightsaber Assault?
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Dec 15, 2009 21:30:16 GMT -5
How's he looking? EXPENSIVE.
I just checked him with my price generator (which tends to be low for higher-end pieces) and he comes out at 69 points, without the commander effect factored in. (I went with Precision, no Lightsaber Duelist, and a defense of 23).
Realistically speaking, what we have here is probably an 80+ character.
Price aside, I would cut Lightsaber Duelist and up Defense a little. This will open up some card real estate, which is desperately needed.
I agree that we should create as few new abilities as possible (despite the fact that I seem to be ignoring my own suggestion!).
I was exploring a new ability as a damage booster to make him a true powerhouse, but perhaps we should look to existing ones: Advantageous Attack, Mighty Swing... heck, even Use the Force.
|
|