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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 16, 2009 16:28:36 GMT -5
I think a defense of 22 would be better than 23, but that's just my opinion. And If we give him a defense above 21, we can drop LS Duelist. Also, we mentioned dropping the starting Force, to at least 2.
As for a damage booster, I could see Advantageous Attack working, I'm not sure what else to suggest if we stay away from custom abilities. Also, if we give him a damage-boosting SA like Adv. Attack, we could very easily drop LS Precision.
On the offensive Force power, if we want one at all, do we want direct-damage or damage-boosting?
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 17, 2009 1:56:22 GMT -5
How's he looking? EXPENSIVE. I just checked him with my price generator (which tends to be low for higher-end pieces) and he comes out at 69 points, without the commander effect factored in. (I went with Precision, no Lightsaber Duelist, and a defense of 23). Realistically speaking, what we have here is probably an 80+ character. Price aside, I would cut Lightsaber Duelist and up Defense a little. This will open up some card real estate, which is desperately needed. I agree that we should create as few new abilities as possible (despite the fact that I seem to be ignoring my own suggestion!). I was exploring a new ability as a damage booster to make him a true powerhouse, but perhaps we should look to existing ones: Advantageous Attack, Mighty Swing... heck, even Use the Force. And which generator is that? MYoda's stat calculator?
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Post by gwek on Dec 17, 2009 2:46:06 GMT -5
I don't think so. It's a spreadsheet I got a while back that I modify sometimes.
I never use it as an endpoint (since pricing is an art, not a science), but often use it as a starting point and a sanity check.
The generator in question is decent for pieces from about 8 to the mid-30s. It often prices really cheap pieces wrong, and once a piece gets over 40, it almost always prices low.
Looking at the capabilities we've given Hoth, I believe that is the case here. High 60s is a very generous and aggressive price for what he can do.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 17, 2009 17:50:05 GMT -5
Looking at the capabilities we've given Hoth, I believe that is the case here. High 60s is a very generous and aggressive price for what he can do. I agree, and that's just where I think we should put him. Since this is the OR, with very, very few good minis (and few minis in general), we can be aggressive with the costing. I think 68 would be good.
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Post by gwek on Dec 17, 2009 22:09:58 GMT -5
Making a few adjustments to the last version (which still had some open-ended stuff), how about:
Lord Hoth Cost: 68 Hit Points: 150 Defense: 22 Attack: 16 Damage: 20
Unique Melee Attack, Triple Attack Mighty Swing (On his turn, if this character doesn't move, he gets +10 Damage against adjacent enemies) Rapport (Characters with a Force rating cost 1 less to include in a squad with this character)
Force 2, Force Renewal 1 Master of the Force 2 Lightsaber Defense (Force 1: When hit by an attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) Lightsaber Riposte (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character can make an immediate attack against that attacker)
Commander Effect: Allied Old Republic characters are treated as having the same name as each other, only for the purpose of special abilities whose name contains Squad. Allies gain Evade and Squad Spirit (Each time this character activates while 3 or more allies with the same name as this character are within 6 squares, he gains a Force point.)
****
The core stats are basically identical to Mace Windu. I lowered the starting Force to 2. With a damage booster, he doesn't need Precision (and therefore has fewer Force options, and marginally less need for Force points).
I went with Mighty Swing as a damage booster because he was a big bruiser (and I think the activated/not activated ones are sometimes overused), but this could easily be changed to one of the others.
Is Squad Spirit AND Evade too powerful a commander effect? Although not unprecedented, it seems a little odd that he gives two different abilities that he doesn't possess, and Evade is a BIGGIE.
One alternative I was thinking of was replacing his damage booster and Evade in the commander effect with Charging Assault (+20 for him, +10 for the commander effect). This would provide a little more unity, and although it would lower his overall damage output, it would help squad damage output overall.
Charging Assault isn't as clearly defensive as Evade, but the double-move would definitely help the melee-heavy Old Republic close with the enemy more quickly.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 17, 2009 23:58:31 GMT -5
He's looking better. Needs another force power, I'm thinking something like Force Push or Repulse 2. Evade is so....well, boring. We've already seen it multiple times. Squad Spirit is neat and original, Evade is not. CA is an interesting idea, what does everyone else think?
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 18, 2009 0:06:43 GMT -5
I think Charging Assault would be appropriate.
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Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 2:11:30 GMT -5
Okay, so we'll tentatively change his Mighty Swing to Charging Assault +20, and change the Evade in the commander effect to Charging Assault +10. Do you really think he needs another Force power? I like that he's relatively streamlined. We customizers tend to clutter up the card too much sometimes.
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Post by xpraider on Dec 18, 2009 13:26:48 GMT -5
No, I think he's looking pretty good, and I like the CA addition. I think it's pretty much what I was looking for in a CE for him.
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Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 14:01:30 GMT -5
Okay, so tentatively:
Lord Hoth Cost: 68 Faction: Old Republic Hit Points: 150 Defense: 22 Attack: 16 Damage: 20
Unique Melee Attack, Triple Attack Charging Assault +20 (Replaces turn: Can move up to double speed, then make an attack at +20 Damage against an adjacent enemy) Rapport (Characters with a Force rating cost 1 less to include in a squad with this character)
Force 2, Force Renewal 1 Master of the Force 2 Lightsaber Defense (Force 1: When hit by an attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) Lightsaber Riposte (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character can make an immediate attack against that attacker)
Commander Effect: Allied Old Republic characters are treated as having the same name as each other, only for the purpose of special abilities whose name contains Squad. Allies gain Charging Assault +10 and Squad Spirit (Each time this character activates while 3 or more allies with the same name as this character are within 6 squares, he gains a Force point.)
****
The switch to Charging Assault means that the Old Republic, under Hoth's command, has a good capacity to close with their enemies and do a decent amount of damage when they get there (the Army of Light basically looks like "Braveheart," which isn't a bad thing). Obviously, Twin Attackers benefit a great deal, so someone like Maris Brood or Cad Bane becomes a very interesting option for the Old Republic.
Hoth himself still remains tough, but his overall personal damage output goes down a little. He can do 40 damage when closing, but only the "standard" 60 damage on normal turn. Given his high HP, though, I think that's okay, because his MO, I think, should really be to close with Charging Assault at the end of a round, then finish up his opponent early with Triple Attack... Then move on to another opponent and repeat.
If we give him another Force power (which I'm not saying I think he needs), I would suggest Use the Force. It's expensive (3 FP), but would allow him to do 60 damage when he closes, or up to 80 damage (40 of it guaranteed) otherwise.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 18, 2009 15:25:51 GMT -5
Looks good, I like Charging Assault instead of Mighty Swing on Hoth (never liked Mighty Swing...) and in the CE. I don't think he NEEDS another FP, but I wouldn't be against him having another one.
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Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 16:32:35 GMT -5
I feel the same way. I'm pretty happy with the way he turned out, but wouldn't mind a combat-boost Force power (I don't think he needs ranged attack, though).
Either way works for me.
Are we almost ready to get him final and approved, then? (Do we have an official approval procedure?)
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 18, 2009 18:05:49 GMT -5
I think a vote should be cast for approval showing the most recent stats posted please.
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Post by saber1 on Dec 18, 2009 21:05:11 GMT -5
Okay, so tentatively: Lord HothCost: 68 Faction: Old Republic Hit Points: 150 Defense: 22 Attack: 16 Damage: 20 UniqueMelee Attack, Triple AttackCharging Assault +20 (Replaces turn: Can move up to double speed, then make an attack at +20 Damage against an adjacent enemy) Rapport (Characters with a Force rating cost 1 less to include in a squad with this character) Force 2, Force Renewal 1Master of the Force 2Lightsaber Defense (Force 1: When hit by an attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) Lightsaber Riposte (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character can make an immediate attack against that attacker) Commander Effect:Allied Old Republic characters are treated as having the same name as each other, only for the purpose of special abilities whose name contains Squad. Allies gain Charging Assault +10 and Squad Spirit (Each time this character activates while 3 or more allies with the same name as this character are within 6 squares, he gains a Force point.) This version of Hoth looks great. My only concern would be the massive force generation leading to Mira Sensing every round, Vodo Altering everything within 6, Nomi Severing everyone she bases, and everyone else rerolling something every turn. I'm not saying its broken, but its certainly powerful. However, his cost does mitigate that problem somewhat and there always is Disruptive.
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Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 22:02:26 GMT -5
Yeah, if he were a 35 point piece, I could see more potential abuse, but at almost 70, his commander effect is a bit limited, since it requires at least 4 allies. Even at 150, a Hoth squad is likely to have a fair amount of Younglings and Antarian Rangers to really take advantage.
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