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Post by Sharrakor on Jun 3, 2009 1:19:47 GMT -5
Hmm. I don't see your point. All 3 of my ERC's have Override. So, I could simply lock you in a room with noway out while I get gambit till I win or have situated myself so you have no possible way of escape. Door control is very important. ? Blowing up doors with Uggies (or Juggernauts if you're OR) overrides Override. You can't close what's not there.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 3, 2009 15:09:17 GMT -5
Yes, the whole game is about situations, but if you make ONE mistake, a good player could pick off Luke and then you have no hope of winning, and I think that Fuzz means that it's not always good to have all the power in your squad on one mini, especially one who isn't all that great to begin with. Yes, he does get Evade and Mobile Attack and he has LD and extra FPs, but without MotF he can't reroll any of the saves and if you fail a couple of them the it is over.
Also, if the Mandos are within 6 squares (which they need to be for Push to work), do you think they are just going to sit back and wait for you to push them? The Ultimate is going to charge in and take out a good portion of your squad, and the Indomitable can take out some as well. MTU would just move double speed right next to Luke and them kill him, and your squad won't be able to retaliate to that.
That all being said, I do think that you have a good, well-thought-out squad there, Zuty, but I'm saying that I can't see it taking out two Mandalores.
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Post by Zuty on Jun 4, 2009 10:00:53 GMT -5
First off, you guys obviously never looked at Force Push on Luke HP Force Push 4 (Force 4, replaces attacks: sight; 40 damage; push back target 4 squares if Huge or smaller) If you don't believe me: bloomilk.com/Characters/Default.aspx?ID=485Second, you guys obviously have not faced a sight DMG squad or a squad that out activated you, or at least it seems like that to me. Even if I lose init and go first or w/e Fuzz chooses me to go I activate Dodonna, back to him he activates 2 more guys (or his first 2), I activate Rieekan, he goes and actives his last guy or his last two, I active Yoda so he has 4 FPs on him; now I can do whatever I want. I can set Luke HP up for a shot, move all the DC I need to get the doors open to my mark, do SIGHT (just in case you forgot again) 40 DMG and 4 squares away from me, lock up the door so you can't get me, rinse and repeat. I can even lock you out from where I am and wait for you to be in LoS so I can take out your Ughs (You can't honestly say that you can put all your faith into 2 Ughs blowing open the doors can you? You can't Charging Fire or w/e it is and still Satchel Charge, it will take you to long to get there and then I just open the door, pop out and kill him, and pop back in.) or Mandos. Like I said, if you sit in gambit your a dead man. You are putting to much faith into two large beat sticks that, while they may win for you where you live, I can not see this being a practical team that wins near me. If you go to the stores and events I have gone to (and I am not trying to make it sound like GenCon, I mean like Friday night SWM at a local gaming store with no one fancy being there) and you try and play this team, your at the bottom of the charts. I just can not see your team winning, not saying it doesn't have the potential to cause me trouble, but causing me trouble (which I define as me getting worried and playing very cautiously) is not winning. I've faced teams like yours with a team I threw together at the last minute and (unless your playing someone who has no skill or is new to SWM) your not going to win. ~Zuty
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 4, 2009 14:27:54 GMT -5
Okay, Zuty, you got me, you are right (on Force Push 4). I never even bothered to look it up because every other Force Push is range 6. While it may still be sight, MTU could move 12 squares, and then attack you at huge damage. On most maps (at least those I have seen), anyone with any experience isn't going to leave a Mandalore out in the open. Also, with Moblie you can only move 6, and with Chraging Fire MTU can move twelve. Even if you push him, he can still move two extra squares and get close (or closer) to you. Yes, you could MAYBE lock a Mandalore in a room, but there are two of them and because FP 4 only affects one target, there would be another Mandalore out their who could take out the piece that is locking the door or take out Luke HPU, and then your squad is finished.
Also, please don't say "you guys" when really it is only me who is arguing with you. I would also like to say that I am done arguing (I can't even remeber why this started) as that is not the point of this thread. Both squads are good, but in different ways. Can someone post a new squad that they would like to see someone counter?
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Post by darthfuzzball on Jun 4, 2009 15:05:36 GMT -5
zuty, here's your problem right here: 1. You can only activate 2 characters in a round. 2. If you had me locked before, which you would need to in case I won initiative, your first activation has to be a door control figure. 3. This means your second activation would be Luke. 4. This means you can't lock the door again, which means the mandalores can rush in. 5. And I'm not stupid enough to leave Mandalore in the open anyway. You need 3 activations in a round for this to work well, and if you postponed Luke's activation until after the mandalores have activated, I can simply hide. Your plan can't work if you are close enough to the middle to collect gambit points (there is only one map in which you can lock yourself in the middle) which means I could hide away for as long as I wanted. If you came out either to collect gambit or to get somewhere where you could see the Mandalore's, you'll get blown up. I see your point about out-activating me, but it doesn't do you any good when I just hide away somewhere where you can't see me unless you come out. This game would be a stalemate unless you came out, which would result in you getting blown up. And seriously, do stop saying you guys. You say "You guys haven't looked at push"....I am well aware it is sight thank you very much You say that if I played this at an actual convention I would do very badly, and you are right. I never said that I would play a team like that at a serious game where I don't know what anyone else is playing, but here I can see that a small squad would not be so bad off as you make it out to be, because the smaller my team, the easier it is to hide it. And you keep saying you'd use door control to get all the doors open to get to me, push me, and lock back up again. What makes you think that 3 door controls is going to be enough to open all the doors and lock them again? Especially if i can hide the ugnaughts BEHIND the mandos because you can't accurate target with push? And if you just open a couple or something so you can get to me next round, I could hit you the next round before you had the chance. Here was something you said I found interesting: "then I just open the door, pop out and kill him, and pop back in" DOESNT WORK. Luke does not have mobile attack. Good placement of the mandos would make it so you would have to get out of the room to see me and you can't "pop back in" or lock a door. I have yet to see an argument from you that I couldn't stop you from working. Your saying my squad wouldn't work against yours unless I was playing against an unexperienced player. You must remember I am not unexperienced, not even close.
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Post by Zuty on Jun 4, 2009 21:51:30 GMT -5
IDK where you are getting the "You can only activate 2 characters in a round." I am using Dodonna, so I can chose to activate 1 or 2 characters while you are restricted to the normal rules.
Also, why would my second activation be Luke? I don't understand what you are even trying to say; do you mean he is the second one I activate for my activations or something else?
Luke does have Mobile. *points at Rieekan*
Also, I am not aiming to sit in gambit. It is the only way you have a chance of winning if I lock you out and you have no way of getting in. (Your Ughs will be dead pretty fast so don't rely on them to much) And why can't I Override the door, pop out and attack then pop back in, and Override it shut? Lobot/R2/T3 opens it, then which ever didn't open it shuts it. I can just as easily have someone stand next to it and open it and then just use them as a door jam when I change my Override to another door. (It opens again because someone is next to it)
And I am sorry for lumping you all together for this, but if someone talks trash about my squad and says "yah I seriously don't see zuty's squad working against anything really." and then you don't even understand how it works, my strat, that Rieekan gives Mobile/Evade, or that Push 4 is sight, it makes me feel like I am on Bloo Milk or reading the posts on Wiz that give me a headache.
I am sure you are an experienced SWM player, and I by no means am trying to overthrow you or push you off your velvet throne; in fact, keep the throne I could care less. But when you just brush off my squad like it is nothing with no positive feedback or reason why you can't see it working (or understand how it works; please don't be embarrassed to ask, I would do the same) I am not going to hesitate to fight back.
~Zuty
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Post by Roque Saber on Jun 5, 2009 10:44:02 GMT -5
I don't see what all the hate is for. This squad, while a little unstable and gimmicky, is pretty good. There's a little overkill when it comes to Force points by having both Obi and Yoda. Luke will pull off a ton of Pushes b/c 1) as stated before, it only replaces attacks and needs sight 2) he can move, push, and move away thanks to Rieekan's CE. Leia deals with SS and Lobot and T3 control the doors. Dodonna brings activation control and R2 semi-assures init. I have no idea what C3PO is doing in there, I personally would scrap him. IMO, this squad needs at least one more stable attacker. You can't rely on Luke to take down all of your enemies. He's good, but fragile.
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Post by Zuty on Jun 5, 2009 14:05:17 GMT -5
I agree that it needs another attacker. I ran this in 200 with Vader's Apprentice (he has Force Push 4 and 5, 5 is range 6 and replaces turn but it is not worth setting it up unless someone is stupid enough to come within 6) and K3 for swap. It didn't have hardly this much DC though.
Obi doesn't go on Luke, (all it would do is give him Mettle) he goes on C3. It is a bit gimmicky, but I made it work in my favor. C3 gains a force rating because of Yoda's Light Tutor, now that he has a FRing, Obi can haunt him. So C3 has Force Renewal 1 and Mettle. (He can not spend Yoda's FPs because it is a CE, Light Tutor is a SA and it works on C3 because C3 doesn't break the rules for Light Tutor.) C3 can spend a FP and move 2 squares or reroll his failed Evades with a Mettle bonus. Like I said, it is unusual but it worked very well.
You're right, I can not rely on Luke beating an entire squad, but when I am facing 4 enemies I see no problem there. 3 Pushes and down goes one Mando, 4 Pushes and does goes another. It is going to be a long match because I need to wait two turns to recharge, but Luke is gaining a FP a turn also. (By turn 3 Luke and Yoda are at 4 FPs each) I just think my team is so different that you guys didn't understand how it worked, and that is my fault for not fully explaining it. So I hope I answered all your questions.
~Zuty
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Post by darthfuzzball on Jun 5, 2009 14:13:58 GMT -5
Ah, forgot about Rieekan lol. You win I'll just post something that can beat yours then Nomi Sunrider 41 points 6 Juggernaut War Droids 96 points Wookiee Trooper 11 points 148 total Anyone want to counter this, pretend this big argument didn't happen? ......
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 5, 2009 14:33:36 GMT -5
Okay, now that that is cleared up, here is my counter to your squad, Fuzz:
Canderous Ordo 48 points Mandalorian Quartermaster 26 points Mandalorian Captain 23 points 2 Mandalorian Scouts 38 points 3 Ugnaught Demolitionists 9 points 2 Mouse Droids 6 points
150 total
Using your own faction, Fuzz, the Mandos. Canderous pops out and rips your squad up. The Scouts pop out, make 4 attacks, and disappear into cover again. The Captain hides away in a corner while the Mouse Droids relay his CE, the Quartermaster runs up with the Scouts/Canderous to provide melee protection and the nice attack bonus, and the Uggies do what they do best: blow up doors (provided your Juggernaut Droids didn't blow it up already).
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Post by darthfuzzball on Jun 5, 2009 14:38:41 GMT -5
Han Solo in Stormtrooper Armor 25 points ithorian commander 11 points Ugnaught Boss 15 points 33 ugnaught demolitionists 99 points
150 total
well, han gives the uggies chargin fire, the ithorian gives them a better attack bonus, and the boss gives them self-destruct. There are so many ugnaughts, they all charge up to your guys (somewhat gradually though so you don't shoot one and blow them all up). They surround your guys. They can move right past you. If you take your attack of opportunity, they blow up and deal damage to your guy. If you don't take the attack, the uggies surround your guy so he cant move and has no choice but to kill the uggies and blow up the guy they are surrounding. If all the uggies die before your guys are dead, Han can shoot and has stealth and high defense.
EDIT: i actually have seen this team played and its not pretty ;D
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 5, 2009 15:00:32 GMT -5
Wow, 99 points of Uggie Demos. Does anybody even have that many Uggies? I sure don't... Anyway, here is my counter:
Darth Vader, Legacy of the Force 71 points Cade Skywalker, Bounty Hunter 61 points 3 Stormtroopers 15 points Ugnaught Demolitionist 3 points
150 total
With the Extra Attack provided by Vader, Cade can do Triple Twin with Splash/round, with can set off multiple chain reactions of Self Destruct before the Uggies even reach me. The Stormies can try and pick off a couple Uggies, too. If Han decides to unleash Furious Assault and pick off my Stormies/Uggie, then Vader can melee him or Cade can rip him to shreads. I had a better squad like this that included the new Thrawn and more Stormies in 200 points.
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Post by Roque Saber on Jun 5, 2009 16:23:57 GMT -5
Ya Fuzz. I hope you realize that even with bountyhunter9's first squad (The mando one), it would be so hard to keep 33 uggies away from each other that whenever he kills one, it will most likely cause a chain reaction that will down several, and possible injure your commanders.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jun 12, 2009 15:58:23 GMT -5
Lol. Yeah, I thought that too, unless he manages to keep a large number hidden out of sight and send only a few Uggies at a time, but in this case Cade would just rip them up. Anyway, I have a new squad that I have made that I would like to see a counter to:
75 Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter 32 Thrawn (Mitth'raw'nuruodo) 46 Echani Handmaiden x2 23 Jolee Bindo 10 Massiff 8 Mas Amedda 6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2
200 total
Yes, I realize that it's 200 points, I would just like to see a counter to it, and we can switch back to 150 point squads after someone counters this one, if you guys want to.
So, with Opportunist from Thrawn and +2/+2 from Jolee's Force Valor (once he activates), DV, JH is extremely powerful and very difficult to take down. The Massiff is swap fooder for Vader (so he can still get off that Triple Attack), Mas makes the CEs rangeless, and the Echanies provide covering fire for Vader (a lot nicer because they also get +2/+2 and Opportunist).
I look forward to seeing a counter.
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Post by Roque Saber on Mar 21, 2010 1:10:23 GMT -5
26 Atton Rand 23 Jolee Bindo 23 Jarael 13 Czerka Scientist 49 The Jedi Exile 3 Mouse Droid 3 Mouse Droid 28 Dash Rendar, Renegade Smuggler 8 R7 8 R7 15 Lobot, CLO ----------------- 11 acts, 199 total Your squad is actually quite easy to beat. Your main mistakes are: 1) You anticipate that Vader will be able to take on a wide host of targets, when he actually will have to target individual pieces, unless your opponent is playing one big beat, Vader's going to have to run around everywhere to get anyone. 2) Lack of swap fodder. Jolee and the Massiff are your only real swap pieces. The Massiff is an easy kill, and Jolee is semi-critical to your squad. Echani's are really too weak and expensive to risk. Use Rodian Brutes. 3) Lack of critical controls (door and tempo). With swap squads, you need tempo control. It's absolutely critical that you are able to outactivate your opponent, otherwise your recently swapped Vader can be pounded by the rest of my pieces. 2 Ug's is about the bare minimum. My squad packs triple override and door gimmick, which really lets me force you to a field of my choice. ---------------- The main layout of my counter is: Atton has Triple/Twin with Cunning+20 and JH. You'll win init with Thrawn, so you either sacrifice using Vader early in the round or getting hit for a whopping 40 damage six times. Jarael bases Vader as soon as possible, using Quad Shockstaff to stun Vader (or at least burn through his Force). Dash can easily take out your Massiff and will hunt the Echani's and commanders. The Exile herself is no slouch and can be used wherever needed. Counter that.
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