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Post by gwek on Feb 27, 2010 20:19:05 GMT -5
Look at the price difference between, say, Dash Rendar and Carth Onasi. "Fan favorites" (eg, Jarael and Dash) are often priced low, as are "key" pieces for factions.
I don't think it's a problem for Tycho to not be as "efficient" in cost as GWA.
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Post by Dendrite on Feb 28, 2010 21:53:25 GMT -5
I kinda think Advantageous Attack or Cunning Attack would be good on him. If not, maybe Stealth to convey the infiltrator side of him?
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Post by Roque Saber on Mar 1, 2010 10:48:58 GMT -5
I like him quite a bit. The only real character who I would be concerned about his CE benefitting is Luke, HPU, but he is almost always played for Push anyway, so it probably wouldn't be a big deal. One question though, why give out Twin? Is there a character reason behind it, or is it just to give Pilots better damage output?
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Post by gwek on Mar 1, 2010 12:05:35 GMT -5
I had the same thoughts with Luke (both the concern and the possible mitigation of that concern...). As discussed earlier, the potential problem with a Pilot-related commander effect is that it would buff powerful characters like Dash Rendar and Luke HoY. Since most of the powerful pilots already have Twin Attack, Twin becomes a "safe" way to boost low-end Pilots without the powerhouse pilots abusing it. So, basically, it's just mechanical. Hey, if Whorm Loathsom can give everyone Twin Attack, why not?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Mar 1, 2010 22:01:51 GMT -5
Whoa, seems a lot of conclusions were jumped to while I was gone, but the piece actually looks better for it.
Why did we start comparing him to General Wedge? I compared Tycho to Wedge ONLY because both are cheap and effective commanders and combatants, something that is relatively rare in SWM. Nothing more, and nothing less. Since when is comparing different characters akin to comparing apples and oranges? I find it interesting that it was stated that comparing Wedge and Tycho would be like comparing apples/oranges, and then we go ahead and compare them anyway. However, back to the discussion...
For the cost, there's really no need to compare him to General Wedge if they're in different factions (assuming of course that Tycho is Rebel). It might be more effective if we look to UH Wedge Antilles if we need help costing him.
I think the CE is good, if anything it might be UNDERPOWERED. Although Intuition and Twin Attack are some of the most powerful abilities in the game, most of the playable Pilots already have Twin, and Intuition is far less useful in a faction with cheap access to GMA. While I'm not suggesting we change it, it's something to keep in mind when costing him.
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Post by surfrider56 on Mar 1, 2010 23:44:53 GMT -5
Tycho was compared to Carth; I said different Era, hence the apples/oranges remark to the era's differences.
We discussed Wedge/Tycho being in NR together, and Tycho shouldn't be a stronger piece in comparison to GWA.
I didn't say I disagreed; like the CE, just asked which era Ty was he, and was it any big deal that he may be stronger than Wedge?
Big deal that a subordinate might be "stronger?" Not to me, just brought it up. From I've seen, a cost of 26 sounds about right; I believe the last stat discussion was on ...
Tycho Celchu Hit Points: 60 Defense: 16 Attack: 7 Damage: 10
Unique Pilot Affinity (New Republic) Intuition Twin Attack
Commander Effect:
Pilot allies gain Quick Reactions and Twin Attack. Once per round, after initiative is determined, 1 Pilot ally can immediately move up to its Speed before any other character activates.
So ... anything else, we seem to be all agreeing yet not saying so ...
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Post by gwek on Mar 2, 2010 10:30:28 GMT -5
I think I'd sign off on those stats at a cost of 26.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Mar 2, 2010 15:38:34 GMT -5
Looking at the stats, I think they look good. Except for the cost. While 26 would be spot-on for this piece, ask yourself: "Would I really use Tycho and Pilots over Rebel Push or Cannon?" I'm not saying that we try and make a Tycho/Pilots combo that is a more competitive squad than Push or Cannon, but certain "niche" pieces, especially in the factions with a vast number of pieces, need to be costed aggressively to be effective. For Tycho, I think a cost of about that of Gen Wedge would work, but I will still approve a cost of 26 if that's what we want to go with.
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Post by surfrider56 on Mar 2, 2010 19:05:04 GMT -5
Looking at the stats, I think they look good. Except for the cost. While 26 would be spot-on for this piece, ask yourself: "Would I really use Tycho and Pilots over Rebel Push or Cannon? For Tycho, I think a cost of about that of Gen Wedge would work, but I will still approve a cost of 26 if that's what we want to go with. Would making it 24-25 make it easier to swallow, so to speak, or leaving it at 26 and force a player to answer your rhetorical question for themselves? Does he have to be agrgressively costed? Or just an alternative to a players style?
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Post by Roque Saber on Mar 6, 2010 11:19:12 GMT -5
Looking at the stats, I think they look good. Except for the cost. While 26 would be spot-on for this piece, ask yourself: "Would I really use Tycho and Pilots over Rebel Push or Cannon?" I'm not saying that we try and make a Tycho/Pilots combo that is a more competitive squad than Push or Cannon, but certain "niche" pieces, especially in the factions with a vast number of pieces, need to be costed aggressively to be effective. For Tycho, I think a cost of about that of Gen Wedge would work, but I will still approve a cost of 26 if that's what we want to go with. But then we come to a question of function. Is Tycho a "niche" piece like gwek is aiming for with Tholme, or is he to make the Rebels have yet another competitive option? Tbh, Rebels are the most overdone faction currently, and don't really need more powerful options. I think 26 is good.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Mar 6, 2010 11:38:48 GMT -5
Looking at the stats, I think they look good. Except for the cost. While 26 would be spot-on for this piece, ask yourself: "Would I really use Tycho and Pilots over Rebel Push or Cannon?" I'm not saying that we try and make a Tycho/Pilots combo that is a more competitive squad than Push or Cannon, but certain "niche" pieces, especially in the factions with a vast number of pieces, need to be costed aggressively to be effective. For Tycho, I think a cost of about that of Gen Wedge would work, but I will still approve a cost of 26 if that's what we want to go with. But then we come to a question of function. Is Tycho a "niche" piece like gwek is aiming for with Tholme, or is he to make the Rebels have yet another competitive option? Tbh, Rebels are the most overdone faction currently, and don't really need more powerful options. I think 26 is good. Pricing him lower won't make the Rebels more powerful at all. It just makes Tycho more effective in his "niche". Let's look at the Fringe and Rebel characters with Pilot (or have Pilot in their names): Cloud Car Pilot Rebel Pilot Shistavanen Pilot Wedge Antilles, Red Two Biggs Darklighter Dash Rendar, Renegade Smuggler Luke Skywalker, Hoth Pilot Unleashed Luke Skywalker, Hero of Yavin Of these characters, the final three are the most useful without Tycho. Dash RS and Luke HoY already have Twin Attack, meaning they don't benefit from the big reason for using Tycho. They do get QR, but that would be more useful on the cheaper Pilots. So the big reason for playing Tycho with the more expensive Pilots is for Intuition, and to give Luke HPU Twin. Of the first three non-Uniques, the Cloud Car Pilot is the most useful with Tycho, followed by the Shistavanen. They would be great with Twin, QR, and possible Intuition, but they have very low attack values, and they only way to consistently boost them is by spending another 23 points on Jolee Bindo. Wedge Antilles, Red Two, is made even better with Twin Attack, as is Biggs Darklighter if you want to pay a bit more. Anyway, throw Rieekan and Dodonna into this mix and you've got some relatively powerful Pilots, but I hardly think they would prove a competitive option in the same way other, more conventional Rebel squads do.
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Post by Dendrite on Mar 7, 2010 14:49:08 GMT -5
I actually think that now, Careful Shot +4/6 would be really nice on him paired with his Intuition. What do y'all think of that?
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Post by surfrider56 on Mar 7, 2010 15:59:09 GMT -5
I actually think that now, Careful Shot +4/6 would be really nice on him paired with his Intuition. What do y'all think of that? So we're back to making him a shooter instead of a commander? Do the Rebels need another shooter??
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Post by Dendrite on Mar 7, 2010 16:38:18 GMT -5
While the answer to your question is no, in my opinion, I don't think Careful Shot would automatically make him a shooter, as his max damage is 20 with Twin. Just a thought
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Post by surfrider56 on Mar 7, 2010 17:16:29 GMT -5
Ok ... my question on adding Careful Shot would be ... why? I'm sure it Would be nice Den, but with respect, do we Really need to cram everything/anything we can into a piece?
As a character, yes he probably Was careful, but would he have been a shooter as such (yes, again apoligies Den.) I always thought of him as the guy Behind the guys doing the shooting, more a director than anything else.
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