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Post by Roque Saber on Feb 12, 2010 22:46:23 GMT -5
That's possible. Make him more of a single attack heavy hitter. So something like base 20 damage, JH, Cunning, Poison, and then maybe Paralysis (as an extra bonus)?
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Post by Dendrite on Feb 14, 2010 10:41:54 GMT -5
I think tha twould work. Maybe just one ability, like Hondo, Jedi Hunter +20?
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Post by gwek on Feb 14, 2010 11:28:16 GMT -5
Although there have been an increasing number of "Saga-style" pieces (as I like to call them) who have only one attack but can dish out a lot with that attack, I think it would be a mistake to make Shimmra, the supreme overlord of the YV and a masterful combatant, such a character.
I think most of the Saga-style characters are designed to benefit characters like the Jedi Exile, who give out extra attacks, or to take advantage of commander effects themselves to maximize their effectiveness. Shimmra doesn't really fit into this mode.
More importantly, I think it's assumed that characters (especially unique characters) over a certain point level will have multi-attack capabilities. With only a few exceptions, all unique characters priced at more than 40 have some sort of multi-attack ability. There are only 4 exceptions to this "rule": two are non-combatant-type commanders with Reinforcements (which signficantly reduces their "real" cost to well below 40) and two are characters of somewhat experimental design (Zam Wesell and Plagueis) who have special abilities capable of dishing out very significant damage.
In an era where commander effects and special abilities allow cheap fodder pieces to dish out 60, 80, even 100 damage per activation, a single-attacking supreme overlord doesn't seem very supreme to me...
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Post by Dendrite on Feb 14, 2010 14:32:43 GMT -5
A point indeed...
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Post by Roque Saber on Feb 14, 2010 15:18:42 GMT -5
Well, we intended for him to have Double. He would be similar to Darth Bane, only 2 possible attacks, but massively powerful.
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Post by gwek on Feb 14, 2010 15:49:05 GMT -5
I was responding to the single-attack issue.
Double Attack is a possibility, although consider the general feeling about Bane these days. While he used to have amazing damage output, he's now considered a bit of a dinosaur, past his prime, and easily outstripped by newer (and cheaper) pieces. (Of course, for Bane, part of the issue is that he's really PURE offense, with no defensive capabilities to speak of).
My gut tells me that a character of Shimmra's caliber should have Double-Twin or Triple (or even Quadruple!), but I'm not opposed to Double, assuming he can dish it out AND take it.
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Post by Dendrite on Feb 14, 2010 16:09:50 GMT -5
Now that you mention Quadruple Attack, I think that + Cunning + 20 or Jedi Hunter +20, or something sounds pretty cool. Quadruple Attack isn't on many characters, and none of them are spectacularly useful. Definitely a good choice in my book...
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Feb 14, 2010 16:16:20 GMT -5
I was responding to the single-attack issue. Double Attack is a possibility, although consider the general feeling about Bane these days. While he used to have amazing damage output, he's now considered a bit of a dinosaur, past his prime, and easily outstripped by newer (and cheaper) pieces. (Of course, for Bane, part of the issue is that he's really PURE offense, with no defensive capabilities to speak of). My gut tells me that a character of Shimmra's caliber should have Double-Twin or Triple (or even Quadruple!), but I'm not opposed to Double, assuming he can dish it out AND take it. While it is true that Darth Bane is well past his prime, it is, like you said, his lack of any defensive abilities whatsoever and his insanely high point cost that limit his usefulness. In addition to this, he isn't subject to many useful CEs in the small Sith faction, and the ones that do boost him end up costing huge sums of points. I don't think we'll have the same problems with Shimrra, though. While he may lack Evade or Lightsaber Defense, our version of Shimrra will have the same monster HP, nearly impenetrable crab armor, and Force Immunity, and ability whose defensive aspects can often be forgotten. As for CEs, Shimrra has access to numerous cheap commanders that could boost him, from the Advance Agent, Officer to Yomin Carr. In regards to you comment about Shimrra having Double/Twin or Triple Attack, I think going the "Bane" route makes more sense with the Supreme Overlord. While he may be an excellent combatant, I recall it being more because of his brute size and strength than speed and finesse. Many attacks would be more suitable to a General Grievous or Yoda, who either use multiple weapons or are extremely quick and agile. Shimrra, in my opinion, be more accurate if we gave him two high-damage attacks rather than three or four average-damaging ones.
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Post by gwek on Feb 15, 2010 21:21:13 GMT -5
I don't want to turn this into a Bane vs Shimmra debate, bit since Bane has come up, I think it may be useful to continue this line of thinking a bit. While he may lack Evade or Lightsaber Defense, our version of Shimrra will have the same monster HP, nearly impenetrable crab armor, and Force Immunity, and ability whose defensive aspects can often be forgotten. While he does have an edge up on Bane in the defensive department, I don't think it's all that big of one. Force Immunity is nice--but is useless against shooters (and shooters are the ones that any melee piece without a ranged attack must worry about... Bane, but comparison, has two options for dealing with opponents at a distance, albeit limited to 6 squares). In a game where low-cost pieces can now regularly dish out 2 or 3 doses of 30+ damage in a single activation, I think the value of Vonduun Crab Armor becomes a bit dubious. And sure, he's got the best version of it, but I think a 3 out of 4 chance of soaking 10 damage is a far cry from "nearly impenetrable." True enough. Again, those, those are OFFENSIVE options. While I see what you're saying about brute force vs finesse, I don't think there's as strong as correlation with Triple Attack as you're implying. The cheapest Triple Attackers--Rodian Raider, Rakghoul, Hoth Trooper with Repeating Blaster Cannon--are certainly not finesse/agility pieces. Nor are (travelling up the ranks), the Rancor, Acklay, Canderous Ordo, Durge, or Darth Krayt. I think enough of these (and other) characters rely on brute strength that Triple Attack would not be a totally inappropriate choice. Ultumately, I don't much care which route we go, but if he's going to be an iconic battle leader for the Vong, we need to make sure he can fill the role.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Feb 16, 2010 17:23:38 GMT -5
I don't want to turn this into a Bane vs Shimmra debate, bit since Bane has come up, I think it may be useful to continue this line of thinking a bit. While he may lack Evade or Lightsaber Defense, our version of Shimrra will have the same monster HP, nearly impenetrable crab armor, and Force Immunity, and ability whose defensive aspects can often be forgotten. While he does have an edge up on Bane in the defensive department, I don't think it's all that big of one. Force Immunity is nice--but is useless against shooters (and shooters are the ones that any melee piece without a ranged attack must worry about... Bane, but comparison, has two options for dealing with opponents at a distance, albeit limited to 6 squares). In a game where low-cost pieces can now regularly dish out 2 or 3 doses of 30+ damage in a single activation, I think the value of Vonduun Crab Armor becomes a bit dubious. And sure, he's got the best version of it, but I think a 3 out of 4 chance of soaking 10 damage is a far cry from "nearly impenetrable.". True enough. Again, those, those are OFFENSIVE options. I completely agree with you, but I don't think it's Shimrra's defense we need to worry about. Frankly, a higher damage-to-attacks ratio will actually improve his effectiveness against shooters than Triple Attack and 20 or situational 30 damage attacks. In regards to the carb armor, I think you're hanging on my words too much. The crab armor itself is very good, and against multi-attacking shooters it can be extremely effective. Though, you are correct in the fact that it isn't that hard to negate by unleashing heavy-damage attacks. These characters may not be very agile or quick, but they do use multiple or rapid-fire weapons, like I said in my last post. The Rodian Raider has a repeating blaster, the Rakghoul has multiple limbs (though I think Triple was more for playability than accuracy on this one), the Hoth Trooper w/ Repeating Blaster Cannon has, well, a Repeating Blaster Cannon, the Rancor has multiple claws (again, probably more for playability than accuracy), the Acklay has many attacking limbs, Canderous has his iconic heavy blaster cannon that fired many shots in a short time, Durge was relatively skilled with a blaster (though giving him Triple was probably for playability than accuracy again), and Darth Krayt wielded two lightsabers (though I don't think this was reflected in his sculpt). I think the Darth Bane route is the best way to go. It's something more unique than Doulbe/Twin or even Triple Attack, as it has only been done once before. What abilities do we think would be best to give a Darth Bane-esque Shimrra?
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Post by Roque Saber on Feb 16, 2010 18:09:30 GMT -5
I think Double would be a bit more unique. As the game has progressed, more and more pieces can have tons of attacks. Beats in particular seem to be more pressed to the Double/Twin or Triple route. Just double (with no real way to increase it) seems more unique and represents his brute force.
As for abilities, he really shouldn't be pumped up that much, because he has access to 5 other damage boosters...sheesh. So maybe base 20 damage with Jedi Hunter and cunning?
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Post by gwek on Feb 16, 2010 19:26:01 GMT -5
In regards to the carb armor, I think you're hanging on my words too much. The crab armor itself is very good, and against multi-attacking shooters it can be extremely effective. Though, you are correct in the fact that it isn't that hard to negate by unleashing heavy-damage attacks. I agree that VCA is better against mutli-attackers, but I still think that one of the failings of the Vong as a competitive force these days is that their protective gimmick hasn't been updated since the introduction in UNIVERSE, whereas the entire damage dynamic has changed significantly. The Rak doesn't have any more limb than the average attacker (nor does the Rancor or Durge). You're completely correct that many of the triple attackers use multi-shot weapons, just as you're right that many of the triple attackers rely on finesse and speed. Neither of these correct statements, however, contradicts that fact that a number of the pieces who use triple attack rely on brutal force (as does Shimmra). Triple Attack can result from any number of different fighting styles. I think the best abilities to give him would be ones that would make him different from (and superior to) Tsavong Lah. He needs to be able to compete against a whole new crop of characters who can eat Lah for breakfast. Again, I personally don't care if he has double, triple, quadruple, or what. I think making sure that the end result is positioned properly within the Vong faction (and within the game as a whole) is what's important.
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Post by Roque Saber on Feb 17, 2010 1:16:55 GMT -5
K, so what would make him superior to Lah? Maybe something that will let him take on more opponents? Maybe something like Cleave or even (not that I'm suggesting random new abilities) a Greater Cleave (same as Cleave, but can be activated twice)? Or maybe a movement breaker? Is there anything is particular you are looking for, or are we just making him different from Lah?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Feb 17, 2010 22:30:59 GMT -5
In regards to the carb armor, I think you're hanging on my words too much. The crab armor itself is very good, and against multi-attacking shooters it can be extremely effective. Though, you are correct in the fact that it isn't that hard to negate by unleashing heavy-damage attacks. I agree that VCA is better against mutli-attackers, but I still think that one of the failings of the Vong as a competitive force these days is that their protective gimmick hasn't been updated since the introduction in UNIVERSE, whereas the entire damage dynamic has changed significantly. Agreed. It has been a long time. Their armor is still great, but it's no longer amazing. This is selective quoting; I stated in brackets that each of these were probably given Triple Attack for design and playability over accuracy. It can, but these styles are almost always result from exceptional dexterity and finesse, or multiple/rapid-fire weapons. As a Rak only has 10 damage, it hardly uses brute force (thus the case for playability over accuracy), and Durge uses a blaster (again, hardly brute force). The only one that could possibly have Triple because of brute strength would be the Rancor, but this piece is from an early set and is quite outdated. I would take it as an anomaly rather than solid evidence that Triple comes from brute force. We could go with this. I like some of RS's suggestions. What do others think?
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Post by gwek on Feb 23, 2010 12:39:37 GMT -5
I don't have any strong comments at this point. If we're going to do a "Bane style" Shimmra, I'd like to see what people think he should be as a starting point.
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