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Post by Roque Saber on May 3, 2010 20:44:59 GMT -5
Did you mean increase the cost by up to 3 points?
Changing the CE will actually take more room (add the word "adjacent") but that's pretty negligible.
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Post by gwek on May 3, 2010 22:21:17 GMT -5
I'm not sure that BH's suggestions really address the playtesting feedback. Even if we increase the cost, taking away Force Corruption doesn't seem to be anything more than a negligible loss, and even changing the range to adjacent is some that can be easily compensated for with a Mouse Droid or 2.
In RS's Vassal example, the adjusted Joruus would likely have played very much as he did, but the squad would have had to swap 2 Stormtroopers for 2 Mouse Droids to retain it's efficiency. Marginally less firepower, same activations, and more challenging (but certainly not impaired) positioning.
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Post by Roque Saber on May 4, 2010 10:36:10 GMT -5
Good point, forgot that Mice would be able to extend that CE. In that case, maybe we should change it to Imperial followers? That really limits the options, as the Empire is very weak on solid shooters.
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Post by gwek on May 4, 2010 10:54:52 GMT -5
I don't know that I'd say "very" weak. They also have quite a few CEs that can be used to buff their shooters. Also, just changing the CE doesn't address the OTHER issue--that the stats don't fit on the card. Ugh!
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Post by bountyhunter9 on May 4, 2010 14:59:37 GMT -5
I wasn't there to watch the playtesting, but from what I gather:
-the CE is enormously powerful -Lightning 4 with FR2 is too powerful
I can see the CE being too powerful with a range of 6 and access to Booming Voice. Lightning 4 with FR2 is too powerful against melee characters.
So we should change the CE limit to adjacent. (Yes, Mouse Droids can extend the range, but you're using them almost exclusively for Joruus as 95% of competitive Imperial squads include Mas and they can be killed 'easily'. Also, careful placement would still make it a burden to get the characters next to them.).
Changing the CE limit to Imperial followers will make it less abusable, but I'm not sure it would be a drastic change. The Empire isn't weak when it comes to shooters - they have Stormtroopers, Arica, Storm Commandos (who Stealth/super Stealth could really help with placement), and Shadow Stormtroopers, not to mention Imperial Officers for more shots.
Also, changing the CE will free up some room - just not much. For comparison:
Whenever a follower within 6 squares makes an attack that benefits from combined fire, damage from that attack cannot be prevented or redirected.
Whenever an adjacent follower makes an attack that benefits from combined fire, damage from that attack cannot be prevented or redirected.
I agree that FR2 and FL4 are too powerful on a piece that costs less than 50 points. I think one of the suggestions was Force 3 with FR1. Would we be good with that?
Also, I think that if we drop Force Corruption 1, the stats should fit on the card. At least based on the last card I saw.
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Post by gwek on May 4, 2010 15:26:14 GMT -5
Can we see that all collected?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on May 4, 2010 17:42:02 GMT -5
Sure can.
Joruus C'baoth
Faction: Imperial Cost: 49 Hit Points: 110 Defense: 20 Attack: +0 Damage: 0
Special Abilities Unique Dominate (Replaces turn: Target living character takes an immediate turn under your control, which does not count as one of your 2 activations this phase, even if it has already been activated this round; save 11. The target character cannot move this turn.) Self Destruct 40 (When this character is defeated, each adjacent character takes 40 damage)
Force Powers Force 3. Force Renewal 1 Battle Meditation (Force 2, replaces attacks: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains the following commander effect: Allies who combine fire grant an additional +2 Attack, and enemy characters cannot combine fire) Force Lightning 4 (Force 4, replaces attacks: range 6; 50 damage to target. Huge or smaller characters are considered activated this round; save 16)
Commander Effect: Whenever an adjacent follower makes an attack that benefits from combined fire, damage from that attack cannot be prevented or redirected.
Do we want to change the CE to affect only Imperial followers? I didn't suggest it, but I wouldn't necessarily be against it, either. Also, do these new changes require a change in cost?
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Post by Roque Saber on May 4, 2010 18:35:29 GMT -5
If you run enough Mice, placement still wouldn't be much of an issue. I think we should have another playtest run with him against a solid squad (with adjacent added to the CE and the force points changed) and see how he does. If it's still total domination with the Fringe shooters, then we will probably need to change it to only Imps.
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Post by gwek on May 4, 2010 19:06:41 GMT -5
Can I offer a suggestion, RS? Don't playtest with Fringe pieces; playtest him with just the best Imperial shooters (and support CEs?) you can put together. If he's STILL too dominating, you've saved yourself the step of trying it out with Fringe first. We should also see if Surf can do a line count to see where we stand. EDIT: I just did a character count on the special abilities/Force powers/commander effect for GMLS and Joruus C'Baoth. GMLS = 751 Joruus = 947 I have a feeling we're still over.
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Post by surfrider56 on May 4, 2010 20:55:04 GMT -5
We should also see if Surf can do a line count to see where we stand. Ask and yea Shall Receive ... Unless I miscounted .... including space ... 26 lines .... Seems to be better ...... what we now of course need to do is adjust the cost .....
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Post by bountyhunter9 on May 5, 2010 16:27:20 GMT -5
If you run enough Mice, placement still wouldn't be much of an issue. I think we should have another playtest run with him against a solid squad (with adjacent added to the CE and the force points changed) and see how he does. If it's still total domination with the Fringe shooters, then we will probably need to change it to only Imps. How many mice are you thinking of running? I think it would take around six to have almost no problems with placement, but four or five would still work. That's a lot of points invested into pieces that will (likely) only help Joruus. Then there's the second part of the CE, where you only get the benefits if you combine fire. Against the competitive mobile squads (especially Rebels and Yobuck), the fodder used for combining fire will, in a lot of cases, be killed off quickly. I would suggest you playtest Joruus against a Yobuck squad and some type of Rebel/NR squad with plenty of shooters. And, like Gwek said, if Joruus still owns with Imperial shooters/CEs (and not Fringe), then we may need to revisit the commander effect.
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Post by surfrider56 on May 6, 2010 22:41:55 GMT -5
Ok, my question ... would dropping lightning instead of repulse make him less dangerous? Or if we're worried about lines, decrease lightning to Lightning 2?
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Post by gwek on May 6, 2010 23:04:53 GMT -5
I don't know, that might actually make him MORE powerful, oddly enough. Cheaper power = more flexibility, can be used more often.
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Post by Roque Saber on May 7, 2010 10:08:30 GMT -5
And the fact that Lightning 2 can hit 3 enemies, Lightning 4 is limited to one. I think Force 3 with Lightning 4 would be fine. He can pull one off early enough, but if he wants to use BM, that will put a dent in his force pool.
Good idea. Does anyone else have Vassal installed? Otherwise it might take a while for all this playtesting sicne fardreamer and I seem to be the only ones doing it.
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Post by Dendrite on May 10, 2010 23:26:36 GMT -5
Best to wait after playtesting, but at 49, he is priced only a little above Vader's Apprentice...with Renewal 1 instead of 2, maybe a price drop is in order, since he has no other offensive capabilities besides a 50/50 chance gimmick... Not a big drop...maybe only by a few points...
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