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Yammosk
Dec 23, 2009 19:25:37 GMT -5
Post by Dendrite on Dec 23, 2009 19:25:37 GMT -5
Maybe 130...so Lord Vader can't end it in one B&B deep strike.
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Yammosk
Dec 23, 2009 19:28:46 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 23, 2009 19:28:46 GMT -5
agree 130 HP for like 23 points
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Yammosk
Dec 23, 2009 22:31:43 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Dec 23, 2009 22:31:43 GMT -5
Yammosk - 23 points Faction: Yuuzhan Vong - Large HP: 130 Defense: 15 Attack: 0 Damage: 0
Special Abilities: Booming Voice (Allies' commander effects normally limited to 6 squares have unlimited range) Emplacement (Cannot move or be moved. Set up anywhere on your half of the battle map. ) Dependent Leadership (When this charater is defeated, allied Yuuzhan Vong gain Savage as long as no other allied Yammosk is in play)
Commander Effect: Yuuzhan Vong allies gain Gregarious. Each Yuuzhan Vong ally can use 2 abilities that replace attacks instead of 1 on its turn.
How does it look?
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Yammosk
Dec 23, 2009 22:55:01 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 23, 2009 22:55:01 GMT -5
To mirror phrasing from Tarpals:
Each Yuuzhan Vong ally can use 2 abilities that replace attacks instead of 1 on its turn.
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Yammosk
Dec 23, 2009 23:53:49 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Dec 23, 2009 23:53:49 GMT -5
Oh, forgive my mistake.
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Yammosk
Dec 24, 2009 9:23:34 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 24, 2009 9:23:34 GMT -5
I usually just cut & paste from bloomilk and edit according. hope bloomilk is right...
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Yammosk
Dec 24, 2009 10:33:51 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 24, 2009 10:33:51 GMT -5
Why shouldn't Lord Vader be able to kill it in one B&B strike? The thing's just a big blob, Lord Vader should be able to kill the thing just by looking at it. While I see where you're coming from, there are MUCH tougher characters that Lord Vader slaughters in one turn in a B&B squad, ie AT-ST, GOWK, Corporate Alliance Tank Droid, Boba BH. All of those characters have 120 HP. One should not give a piece the magic 130 HP just so it doesn't get killed in one turn by one character if it makes the piece less accurate to the character. That's not an effective way to make a custom, IMO.
I was thinking more like 110 HP, which I think is perfectly fair for a blob, even one with a 16 metre diameter. If you're letting Lord Vader (or someone to swap him in) or MJJ within striking distance of the Yammosk, like has already been mentioned you're probably going to lose anyway. And, with 110 HP, you have to worry more about preventing the strike against it, rather than reacting to it, like the monster 130 HP would incur.
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Yammosk
Dec 24, 2009 12:58:51 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Dec 24, 2009 12:58:51 GMT -5
The 130 HP is coming from a playability standpoint. If the piece that holds your squad together gets killed in one round by LV, you are at a supreme disadvantage. It's meant to prevent such abusive situations as much as possible.
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Yammosk
Dec 24, 2009 15:29:27 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 24, 2009 15:29:27 GMT -5
It may be holding your squad together (well not really, but when it dies your pretty much screwed), but this is where I'm coming from: (this example assumes the Yammosk has 120 or less HP, and the Imperial player is doing his best to kill it) Lord Vader costs 71 points. Add in IE Thrawn and a swapper (we'll say a Massif) and we're looking at over 110 points on those three characters. That's over 2/3rds or 1/2 or your squad right there. Now, with the Yammosk (cost about mid-20s, I think we said), you're going to have lots of room for a bunch of Advance Scouts, Warriors, Jedi Hunters, a Shaper, etc. The Yammosk is going to be way, way in the back, away from the battle. Now, you try and bring that swapper into position for a swap, it'll likely get killed, unless you can activated Thrawn and swap Lord Vader in right away. Now LV is a sitting duck for the JHs, who will easily hit his somewhat fragile frame because of Gregarious, Jedi Hunter, and what ever other boosts they have. If that doesn't kill him, the Advance Scouts will have twin Thud Bugs to use against him, to slowly (because of his DA) wittle down his HP, and he will get activated or killed before he can activate.
Now, if you manage to outactivate the Vong in this situation, it's easier to kill it, but still incredibly difficult. Ozzel will almost certainly be necessary if that's your plan, because you've got over half you squad invested in two characters, so that's another 11 points. Now, the swapper (keeping with the Massif example, which has Speed 8) has to be within 20 squares (double move for 12, then LV can move 8 by spending a Force point) or 24 squares (if it has Speed 8) of the Yammosk (or closer to it). That's a lot of squares to move. This means that the swapper has to start it's turn within 20/24 squares of the Yammosk, likely very close to the battle. So it has to survive the original Vong assault. Then it can activate, double-move, swap in LV, LV can use a Force point if necessary, base the Yammosk, use Lightsaber Assault, and kill the Yammosk in one turn.
So LV just killed a 25-point character, leaving himself wide open to counter-attack (not to mention the rest of his squad/swappers), to cancel the Vong's BV and give them Savage. You can win init with Thrawn, and swap LV away, but then he's likely either still within range of attacking YV or won't be able to attack in the round. The Vong having Savage doesn't guarantee a win for the Imperial player. So you're left facing 125 or 175 points of Savage Vong with about 40 or 90 points of Imperial grunts with LV unable to attack for a round (or vulnerable to counter-attack). Even without CEs, the Vong can still get the bonus from the Shaper, even though it'll probably get killed quickly because it has Savage and has to be close to the battle. The Vong now have an advantage, because they can either kill (or severly wound) Lord Vader or avoid a strike from him altogether, and mop up the Imperial swappers, meaning LV will have less and less pieces to choose to swap with. The Vong will probably win in this scenario, more than 50% of the time.
Now, all that said, unless you give the Yammosk 300 Hit Points, there are still multiple characters that can kill it in one turn (Lord Vader can use LS Assault and Sith Rage on top of Oppo from Thrawn, dealing 160 damage in one turn, an Imperial Sentinel can base it and attack with Oppo from IE Thrawn, and then get two more attacks from Imperial Officers, etc.). Just giving the Yammosk 130 HP so it can survive an attack from MJJ, or LV if he happens to not get Opportunist or use Sith Rage, or a Triple/Twin from GMLS, and all the other characters that deal 120 damage in a turn is a flawed design theory. I can still kill it with other pieces.
Also, we wanted to make these cheap enough that playing two would be a very viable option. If we keep it under 30, we can keep the HP lower (further lowering the cost and further making playing two a better option).
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Yammosk
Dec 25, 2009 0:35:50 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Dec 25, 2009 0:35:50 GMT -5
Well said. Since I'm biased in this matter, it looks like we'll have to bring in another voice. GWEk?
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Yammosk
Dec 25, 2009 9:41:38 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 25, 2009 9:41:38 GMT -5
I will agree on anything between 110-130 HP for the cost between 21-24 pts. Any votes against this? Gwek?
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Yammosk
Dec 25, 2009 10:09:35 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 25, 2009 10:09:35 GMT -5
I think that sounds good.
Can we see a final version to vote for final approval?
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Yammosk
Dec 25, 2009 10:33:07 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 25, 2009 10:33:07 GMT -5
I believe that gives us this (copying and pasting from RS's previous version, with the HP change):
Yammosk - 23 points Faction: Yuuzhan Vong - Large HP: 110 Defense: 15 Attack: 0 Damage: 0
Special Abilities: Booming Voice (Allies' commander effects normally limited to 6 squares have unlimited range) Emplacement (Cannot move or be moved. Set up anywhere on your half of the battle map. ) Dependent Leadership (When this charater is defeated, allied Yuuzhan Vong gain Savage as long as no other allied Yammosk is in play)
Commander Effect: Yuuzhan Vong allies gain Gregarious. Each Yuuzhan Vong ally can use 2 abilities that replace attacks instead of 1 on its turn.
Does this look good? Does 23 seem good for the cost?
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Yammosk
Dec 25, 2009 21:26:27 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 25, 2009 21:26:27 GMT -5
Yes looks perfect, any sign of a mini for this at all?
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Yammosk
Dec 25, 2009 23:41:06 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 25, 2009 23:41:06 GMT -5
Yeah, okay (although I'd be really curious to see how the piece playtests...).
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