jhart
Jedi Padawan
Posts: 36
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Post by jhart on Jan 9, 2010 1:31:45 GMT -5
Here's an updated version of the most recently posted. Celeste Morne Cost: HP: 90 Def: 18 Att: 10 Dam 20 Special Abilities Unique; Melee Attack; Double Attack; Stealth Muur Talisman (When this character defeats an enemy, that enemy is returned to play at 10 HPs, becomes part of this character's squad and gains Savage and Rakghoul Plague.) Rakghoul Master (Character's with Rakghoul Plague are not subject to the movement restrictions and requirements of Savage, and may not give Commander Effects.) A New Host (When this character is defeated, target the nearest Force User within 6 squares save 11; on a failure that character joins this character's squad and gains Rakghoul Master, Muur Talisman, and A New Host) Force Powers Force 2, Renewal 1 Force Bubble Force Repulse 3 Force Lightning I mentions the problems and suggestions I had for Rakghoul master and A new Host in other posts. Other than that I think this character looks good. I especially like the mechanic for the muur talisman. It balances story accuracy and playability very well. I do have three small suggestions. 1) If she was OR instead of fringe there would be much less risk of her being unballanced, and the OR needs the help. 2) I do not remember her useing a force bubble, LS defense might be more appropriate. 3) Internal strife could help keep her cost down, and accurately represent her battle of wills with Karness Muur.
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Post by xpraider on Jan 9, 2010 9:24:19 GMT -5
A new Host seems unbalanced to me. On one 50% roll you could take GMLS or Darth Bane from your opponent and use them against them. All other betrayal rolls are 5% with FPRR bringing it to .25% a 1/400 chance. It also does not accurately represent what happens in story. Celeste controled the Muur talisman. Once free of her it would try to make it's new host a sith, not make them serve Celeste's allies. Also, there should be a chance that the new host could control the talisman like celeste did. An ability to posses a host would be more appropriate on a Karness Muur, Sith spirit. It is him doing the possesion, not Celeste Yes, it is quite powerful, but it is also something that can be dealt with by clever maneuvering, and assuming they didn't use the Force that round, a Force User would be able to resist it more easily with a reroll. Still, it could be changed to an easier save, but a 5% chance of switching sides I think is a bit too low. As far as the portrayal goes, he would try to make them serve him and his agenda, and while Celeste was mostly in control there were moments where Muur would take over as well. But you do bring up a couple of good points.
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Post by darthgrievous on Jan 9, 2010 9:49:49 GMT -5
So the CE is completey gone now? Other than that I think she looks good
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Post by gwek on Jan 9, 2010 16:51:00 GMT -5
I see some of jart's points. Perhaps the host should hop the the nearest character with a Force rating... but they don't switch to your squad.
I think there's definitely something to jhart's concern that there's a 50/50 shot to get any Force-user to flip rather than the 5% that other abilities have.
I think Celeste should definitely have a commander effect (if only to reduce the number of commander effects she's eligible for!)
The question of commander effect brings up another question about Celeste: should be be allowed to have "regular" (non-Rahks) in her squad, or should her commander effect give Rakghoul Disease to all allies without a Force rating?
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Post by Roque Saber on Jan 9, 2010 19:49:03 GMT -5
I really don't like A New Host. It seems very powerful but not very necessary for the piece. Sure, it fits the story, but it's not essential like the Talisman is. Does it really need to be there? I agree that a Rakghoul CE would be a wise course of action. Remember if we did that, we would have to limit it to those with melee. Rak-Disease slughtrowers...
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jhart
Jedi Padawan
Posts: 36
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Post by jhart on Jan 9, 2010 20:58:25 GMT -5
The question of commander effect brings up another question about Celeste: should be be allowed to have "regular" (non-Rahks) in her squad, or should her commander effect give Rakghoul Disease to all allies without a Force rating? Syn anu Blue worked with her in story. So it should not be automatic. You could replace the words enemy with character for the definition of Muur Talisman. That way she could turn her allies with repulse.
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jhart
Jedi Padawan
Posts: 36
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Post by jhart on Jan 9, 2010 21:48:47 GMT -5
I really don't like A New Host. It seems very powerful but not very necessary for the piece. Sure, it fits the story, but it's not essential like the Talisman is. Does it really need to be there? I agree. We could fix it but it would end up as a complicated New SA with very limiited use. I agree that a Rakghoul CE would be a wise course of action. Agreed. The old Rakghoul's need a bost to their attack. 5 attack just is not competitive. Remember if we did that, we would have to limit it to those with melee. Rak-Disease slughtrowers... Disagree. We limited Celeste's ability to make Rak's for reasons of balance and expediance. We can allow Rak-Disease slugthrowers for the same reason
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jan 9, 2010 22:50:36 GMT -5
Disagree. We limited Celeste's ability to make Rak's for reasons of balance and expediance. We can allow Rak-Disease slugthrowers for the same reason When Celeste turns everyone into Raks, they may gain the poison, but it's in their body, not in their weapons. And, while infusing slugthrowers with the Rak disease would be somewhat possible, almost all ranged characters use blasters, which could not be infused with the Rak disease. I think limiting it to melee characters is a good idea.
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jhart
Jedi Padawan
Posts: 36
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Post by jhart on Jan 9, 2010 23:48:29 GMT -5
Disagree. We limited Celeste's ability to make Rak's for reasons of balance and expediance. We can allow Rak-Disease slugthrowers for the same reason When Celeste turns everyone into Raks, they may gain the poison, but it's in their body, not in their weapons. And, while infusing slugthrowers with the Rak disease would be somewhat possible, almost all ranged characters use blasters, which could not be infused with the Rak disease. I think limiting it to melee characters is a good idea. I was not clear before. I agree that story wise you need melee to pass the disease. The problem is game wise, the right way to fix it would be to change the definition of Rakghoul disease to require adjacent living enemy instead of just living enemies. Saying Celeste can not infect charicters who do not have melee would be as wrong as infecting someone by shooting them.
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Post by xpraider on Jan 10, 2010 0:46:05 GMT -5
Ok, bit of a long post. And I'll try to go over some things.
First off, her having A New Host. Yes, it is a powerful ability, but it's also something that was an essential part of her character, and something that was an essential part of the story, and was just as central to the whole thing as the Raks, Karnes Muur's attempt to find a worthy host to take over was the driving factor in the story. It makes sense for her to have it.
I originally had it as affecting the Nearest Force User, and I could change it back, so that its the Nearest Force User within 6 squares.
I'd also like to point out that it's not really a new ability, just new to SWM. Thrall of Blackrazor had a very similar ability with the sword, except that it was a harder save, and affected an adjacent piece that killed it. But the effect was the same and a few of its abilities went to the new character.
I'm really kind of Eh on a CE for her. The same effect was obtained via SAs, and it makes it a bit more of a pain to get the effect to work with A New Host. She really wasn't much of a Commander, except to the Raks, and most of that was allowing them to act with their skills. But I'll see about adding one back in.
She should absolutely have regular non-raks in her squad, she worked with other non-Force Users, including Gryph, Syn, and Blue.
There are ways of balancing her out still without having to drop abilities that fit the character. Before we drop A New Host, I'd like to see if we can balance it, and her. I'll also change some of the thing about the Muur Talisman itself.
Celeste Morne Cost: HP: 90 Def: 18 Att: 10 Dam 20
Special Abilities Unique; Melee Attack; Double Attack; Stealth; Internal Strife Muur Talisman (When this character defeats an enemy without a Force Rating, that enemy is returned to play at 10 HPs, becomes part of this character's squad and gains Savage and Rakghoul Plague.)
Rakghoul Master (Character's with Rakghoul Plague are not subject to the movement restrictions and requirements of Savage, and may not give Commander Effects.)
A New Host (When this character is defeated, the nearest Force User within 6 squares gains Internal Strife, Rakghoul Master, Muur Talisman, and A New Host. Save 6; on a failure that character joins this character's squad.)
Force Powers Force 2, Renewal 1 Force Bubble Force Repulse 3 Force Lightning
Commander Effect: Characters in your squad named Rakghoul are affected by this Effect. Characters in your squad named Rakghoul gain +4 Attack.
Okay. So about the changes.
First off, I added Internal Strife, which can represent her struggle against Muur's control.
I made a change to Muur Talisman so that it only affects non-Force Users, which makes sense when you consider that it was the Raks themselves that changed Force Users.
I made a few changes to A New Host as well. First off, it will target whoever is the closest Force User within 6 squares, friend or enemy. I also lowered the Save to 6, which represents the struggle against Karness Muur trying to take them over, along with Internal Strife. One of the major changes was that regardless if they make the save or not, the character gains New Host, Rakghoul Master, Muur Talisman and Internal Strife. Pretty much for the same reason Celeste has those abilities.
So there it is possible that if you're not careful with Celeste you may end up giving her more powerful abilities to your opponent, or may end up taking over your opponent.
I also gave her a CE that will affect Rakghouls, and gives them a bonus to hit. I made it so that it would only affect actual Rakghouls, since I think her giving it to characters with Rakghoul Disease, would be a bit nasty, especially considering who she may turn. I also set it up so that the CE doesn't transfer over to someone else who gets taken by the Talisman, since Celeste was the one who had been working with the Raks for so long, and learned how to control them.
So in total. She now has a chance to turn on her own squad. She will only affect non-Force Users with her ability to turn people to Rakghouls. The Talisman will still try to take over a Force User when Celeste dies, but now will just take over the closest within 6 squares. The character that gets it, gains the abilities, but has a save of 6 to resist Muur's take over, but gains Internal Strife so can switch back, again representing the struggle between the host and Muur. I also gave her a CE that will affect th Rakghouls and give them a better attack, but didn't include it in the transfer with the Talisman (which if you think about it would be kind of pointless unless it stayed in the same squad, or the opponent included Rakghouls in his squad.
As far as some of the other suggestions. I didn't change her HPs yet, or get rid of Force Bubble, since I want her to be a bit vulnerable, but also have a way of defending herself, and I wanted these issues taken care of first.
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jhart
Jedi Padawan
Posts: 36
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Post by jhart on Jan 10, 2010 1:12:01 GMT -5
Nice, I like the changes and think we are close to finishing this one.
Two points:
The CE must start with the phrase "Savage characters are subject to this effect" or it will not work.
I would still like to see Rakghoul master be part of the CE. That way it can be disrupted. Also, the entire CE should transfer with the talisman. The attack bonus represents the inteligence guideing their actions.
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jhart
Jedi Padawan
Posts: 36
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Post by jhart on Jan 10, 2010 1:23:37 GMT -5
Another thought. Make the stripping of CE's from demi-Rak's part of the talisman SA. Muur Talisman is the SA that defines and creates demi-Rak's.
Something like: Muur Talisman (When this character defeats a living character without a Force Rating, that character is returned to play at 10 HPs, loses all commander effects, becomes part of this character's squad and gains Savage and Rakghoul Plague.)
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Post by Roque Saber on Jan 10, 2010 15:03:47 GMT -5
Ya that's kind of the point. Doesn't really matter if we've seen it on a DnD piece or something else before, it's creating a new ability that really doesn't have to be made. A would argue that it is not essential to her character and she could easily be flavorful without it.
Ah, slight miscommunication. I intended to say that only those with Melee Attack would gain Rak Disease. She can infect anyone, but only the melee ones can transform others as well. Does that make more sense?
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Post by xpraider on Jan 10, 2010 15:27:38 GMT -5
Ya that's kind of the point. Doesn't really matter if we've seen it on a DnD piece or something else before, it's creating a new ability that really doesn't have to be made. A would argue that it is not essential to her character and she could easily be flavorful without it. If you have a way of representing it without creating a new ability, I'm willing to listen, but I think it is something that was essential to both the character and the story. The whole central premise to Vector was Celeste acting as a prison to Muur and Muur trying to find another worthy host. It was probably more essential to her story since it was one of the main reasons she got involved with Luke and Cade. Muur attempted to leave her for Luke and Leia, and jumped on Cade as soon as she died. And while it is new to SWM, D&D minis was a system that was relatively similar to SWM, and while there are differences between the games, the Blackrazor ability working in D&D shows that it might work in SWM.
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Post by Roque Saber on Jan 11, 2010 12:18:51 GMT -5
I'm not arguing that the ability would or wouldn't work. As an ability, it could be perfect. It's simply that it's a previously uncreated ability, and so we should handle it with caution.
GWEk, BH9, what do you think of A New Host? Good? Bad? Debatable?
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