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Post by surfrider56 on Mar 16, 2010 22:55:47 GMT -5
Well, what we might want to keep in mind is that he seems to be Yoda's #1 infiltrator; remember, it was his network of spy's that were penetrating Dooku's own network; remember, it was Tholme who was running Quinlan Vos; I doubt Yoda would've trusted this whole endeaver to a lesser Master. Tholme may have been right up there, maybe not a Council-Level Master, but a powerful and certainly cunning one.
Tholme in the low-mid 40's wouldn't be too far off; so in essence, I disagree with BH ... then again, (my usual question,) what Tholme are we creating? The Spy Master?, the Saboteur? the Escape Artist?
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Post by gwek on Mar 17, 2010 8:43:34 GMT -5
I know what Tholme *I was working on... The spymaster who lives to fight another day. But despite initial mixed interest, folk seemed to have soured on that concept.
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Post by Roque Saber on Mar 17, 2010 10:19:43 GMT -5
Well, he can still be that. For gameplay purposes, he'll just be toned down so that his point cost can be more flexible. This actually does fit his characteristics, he wasn't a big name Jedi who went around destroying 10 million SBD's with his bare hands, he was the less noticeable guy who went around and messed up the enemy.
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Post by gwek on Mar 17, 2010 10:35:22 GMT -5
**cough cough** commander effect **cough cough**
Seriously, though, I think the first thing we need to settle on his what level we want him at (eg, 20-25, mid-twenties to mid-thirties, 40+, etc).
The second is what impact, if any, we want to make with Disruptive.
There's been enough discussion that I think once we settle those two issues, he should fall into place fairly easily.
Speaking for myself, I would be okay with a low-cost (along the lines of Dark Woman) Tholme without Disruptive. I'd rather not see Disruptive on him for less than 40 or so (for the faction balance reasons I've noted previously).
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Post by Roque Saber on Mar 17, 2010 11:01:21 GMT -5
Faction balance reasons pale in comparison to Rebels, even NR. Republic wouldn't become overly powerful if Tholme had it, that's fact. As for cost, I think he would be most useful (not powerful, but useful) in either Dark Woman or Quinlan, Infiltrator range. 20's to 30's.
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Post by gwek on Mar 17, 2010 11:46:12 GMT -5
Because they're only 700 times more powerful than other factions rather than 800 times more powerful isn't necessarily a reason to dismiss faction balance. I'm okay with any level, but I think if he costs more than 20 or so, he should have double, and if he has Disruptive, he should be at the higher end of things. Those are my personal opinions.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Mar 17, 2010 15:03:02 GMT -5
I agree that Disruptive should not go on a piece in the 20s who also has Cloaked in the Republic faction. If we want Disruptive and Cloaked, he should cost, at the very least, in the 30s.
Also, no matter where he's costed, we should give him either Double or Cunning Attack, but not both.
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Post by surfrider56 on Mar 17, 2010 17:58:34 GMT -5
I could live with cunning; it would be in character. Double ... I don't see that at all; he's capable, but not an offensive melee character by any stretch of the imagination.
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Post by gwek on Mar 17, 2010 22:29:30 GMT -5
Based on the price, I'd be inclined more toward Double Attack (as noted earlier, with very few exceptions, the single attacking Jedi are throwbacks to the first few sets--pre-Universe).
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Post by surfrider56 on Mar 17, 2010 22:58:01 GMT -5
Based on the price, I'd be inclined more toward Double Attack (as noted earlier, with very few exceptions, the single attacking Jedi are throwbacks to the first few sets--pre-Universe). For the record, only the Dark Woman is missing Double in latter set Jedi. Still, when has that stopped us from doing what we think best. Tholme is Not a major melee piece in Any incarnation Lucas, Dark Horse, or WOTC have ever created. Why do We need to make him with Double. I'm sorry, but I just don't see why we need Double ... just because the others do? Tholme is just like the Dark Woman; a loner and a niche piece. As quoted from Wook "Jedi Watchmen had the ability to cloak their physical selves with the Force, granting them invisibility. As such, their role was usually that of a behind-the-scenes warrior, diplomat, and a subtle but benevolent manipulator of a given world's events. Jedi Watchmen were the eyes and ears of the Jedi Council, granting them greater flexibility in formulating the strategy of the Jedi Order." Seems he's a behind the scenes man, not an in-your-face Anakin type at all. Sounds to me like Cloaked, JMT, and Disruptive would be implied in all that. The description makes a better case for Recon, Initiative, or Surprise Move, but not Double.
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Post by Roque Saber on Mar 17, 2010 23:23:35 GMT -5
I agree that Cunning would be better than Double. Plus, if you really wanted to, you could give him Double through Flobi or Windu. The Republic is not 700x more powerful than other factions by any stretch of the imagination.
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Post by gwek on Mar 17, 2010 23:34:52 GMT -5
Ah, the dangers of using Wookieepedia...
Despite what the Wook might say, if you read REPUBLIC, you'll see that he's a pretty skilled combatant who is a capable of standing up to multiple enemies on his own and also standing toe-to-toe (at least briefly) against Count Dooku.
He may not be on par with Yoda or Mace Windu, but he's no slouch either. He's a Jedi Master who has trained multiple padawans who are very skilled, after all.
Speaking mechanically, I really think whether he has Double or not is dictated, to some extent, by his cost. Ahsoka Tano, Cade Skywalker Padawan, and Nadhar Vebb all have Double Attack (as does the generic Jedi Watchman), and Tholme's a better combatant than any of them.
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Post by surfrider56 on Mar 18, 2010 0:04:37 GMT -5
I've read Republic too ... and I'm not going to go thru 83 odd issues to quote chapter/verse. Wook is ment to summerize, which is good enough for me.
As for Tholme/Dooku, I don't remember the fight being a prolonged duel. Any Master should be able to survive for a few seconds; even Vebb lasted 30 seconds or so against Grievous.
As to Double tied to cost; why? A case could be made that Every Jedi should have multiple abilities like Leap, Lightsaber Defense, Push, Grip, etc. but we can't do that, it'd be more like a book, not a card.
Everybody can't have everything. I think if he needs an ability, it should be Cunning over Double.
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Post by Roque Saber on Mar 18, 2010 0:32:35 GMT -5
If anything, Cunning captures Tholme's flavor better than Double does. If you're concerned about damage, make it Cunning +20. That would be pretty cool actually, as only a handful of melee pieces have it at this point in time.
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Post by gwek on Mar 18, 2010 9:06:52 GMT -5
I've read Republic too ... and I'm not going to go thru 83 odd issues to quote chapter/verse. Wook is ment to summerize, which is good enough for me. Apologies if I've offended. It seems to me that there might be folk commenting on the "flavor" of Tholme without being particularly familiar with the character. While Wookieepedia is good as a starting point, it is sometimes inaccurate, if not outright incorrect. Correct. And Vebb has Double Attack, as do most Master-level pieces. As I said before, the vast majority of unique "Jedi" (here, I mean melee pieces with a Force rating) have something other than single attacks. The majority of single-attacker Jedi are from CLONE STRIKE and ROTS, which means they're outdated and generally looked down up as overpriced. I think that if Tholme costs more than the very low 20s and has only a single attack, he will be viewed with the same stigma. Melee pieces already have enough problems!
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