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Post by bountyhunter9 on Mar 15, 2010 13:01:38 GMT -5
I think the best thing to do is go with a Disruptive/Cloaked/Surprise Move combination. I don't have any strong feelings regarding the CE we had, but reading up on the Wook, he seemed like more of a loner than commander. However, I could go either way with it.
Going off the version RS posted last, I think he may be a bit too expensive for my tastes. Personally, I would like to seem cost somewhere from 26-35 rather than in the 40s. Placing him as a mid-priced Jedi would give him a lot more squad options and streamlining him a bit could increase his appeal. Here's what I'm suggesting:
Tholme Faction: Republic Hit Points: 100 Defense: 19 Attack: 10 Damage: 20
Unique Melee Attack, Double Attack Avoid Defeat (Whenever this character would be defeated, make 2 saves, each needing 11; if both succeed, this character has 10 Hit Points instead of being defeated) Cloaked (If this character has cover, he cannot be targeted by nonadjacent enemies.) Cunning Attack (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against an enemy who has not activated this round) Disruptive
Force 5; Master of the Force 2
Force Alter (Force 1: range 6; any 1 enemy rerolls its last attack) Jedi Mind Trick (Force 1, usable only on this character's turn: range 2; target living enemy is considered activated this round and cannot make attacks of opportunity this turn; save 11) Surprise Move
I struck out what I though wasn't entirely necessary, in terms of playability or accuracy, to the piece. He wasn't terribly gifted with the 'saber, so why should he be able to deal the same amount of damage as Darth Revan? Force Alter seemed like filler, and with Surprise Move added in there it's no longer needed. MotF, while interesting with JMT, adds to the cost by quite a bit.
Dropping Double Attack, Force Alter, and Master of the Force should drop the cost by quite a bit. I think that, with those changes, he could be priced from 31-34.
Thoughts?
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Post by Roque Saber on Mar 15, 2010 16:42:34 GMT -5
Interesting, I actually quite like that take. Make him more like the Dark Woman. Cheap, but good stats and an effective gimmick. Disruptive on such a cheap piece might be a little dangerous though, especially if he has Cloaked and Surprise Move. 35 would probably be close to what we're looking for.
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Post by gwek on Mar 15, 2010 19:18:15 GMT -5
I think Force Alter is pretty important to the character. Paired with Jedi Mind Trick, it represents his deceptive nature. (And MotF helped him use those abilities in combo...).
Unless we really drop the price down, I'd keep Double Attack in (possibly at the expense of Cunning Attack). There are only 14 unique Jedi (Force-users with melee attack) who do not have an extra attack of some sort. 11 of those 14 are extremely out-of-date pieces (from the first three sets), who are typically viewed as sub-par (and have been for years, in most cases. Even accounting for that, the highest is priced at 31.
The other three "Jedi" with only a single attack are Logray (12), Dark Woman (21), and Plagueis (63). Since Plageuis is a somewhat "experimental" piece, the most expensive "modern" single-attacker costs a mere 21. If we price him in the mid-thirties and leave him with a single attack, we risk statting him like a piece from the CS/RotS era.
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Post by Roque Saber on Mar 15, 2010 20:29:08 GMT -5
Well, it depends on his function. The reason most of the CS pieces are outdated is because they have no other reasons to be run. The Dark Woman has Force Phase and Light Tutor. Plagueis is has EoL and Corruption. Tholme would have Disruptive and Cloaked. If his function is not a damage dealer, then he could survive without Double.
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Post by surfrider56 on Mar 15, 2010 21:30:01 GMT -5
If given a choice I'd go with Alter over Double. He wasn't known much as a fighter; more of an investigator/spy/sabatage export that had a strong survival instinct. Alter fits better than double ...
Anyone consider dropping him to F2 with Renewal and MOTF? He'd have a stronger survival chance (befitting him) and more likely to actually cause big trouble (which he would have.)
He'd cost more, but it would all be in character as one of the slipperiest Jedi around.
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Post by Roque Saber on Mar 15, 2010 22:22:46 GMT -5
I think we decided against Renewal because 1) he wasn't *that* powerful of a Jedi and 2) he supposed to be more of a one-trick-pony. He can Alter and Mind Trick multiple times, but once he's out of force, he's out. It also makes you think twice about abusing MotF.
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Post by surfrider56 on Mar 15, 2010 23:42:16 GMT -5
I think we decided against Renewal because 1) he wasn't *that* powerful of a Jedi and 2) he supposed to be more of a one-trick-pony. He can Alter and Mind Trick multiple times, but once he's out of force, he's out. It also makes you think twice about abusing MotF. Well ... if he's not that powerful, how would he generate F5? I saw the discussion on "one-trick" and he's meat when he's out of F points, but somehow eliminating Alter doesn't feel right. I threw out the Renewal idea as part of MOTF ... it would make him a bigger target and he'd be hunted ... which in a round about way would jive with his Avoid Defeat. Which brings me to the actual point I was making last post about my wanting Alter over Double. So shoot me ...it was a long Spring Baseball weekend with some alcohol involved ..... ;D But I am serious about Alter over Double
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Post by gwek on Mar 16, 2010 9:28:09 GMT -5
If we don't give him Double, I think we should lower the price to make him comparable to the Dark Woman. In that case, I think we need to start from scratch rather than cutting away at a piece that was potentially intended to be in the 40s or 50s.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Mar 16, 2010 11:59:50 GMT -5
Okay, let's start from scratch without Double, see what we can come up with, compare the two versions, and see which one we like better. I'll start:
Tholme Hit Points: 80-100 Defense: 18-19 Attack: 8-10 Damage: 20
Unique Melee Attack Cloaked Cunning Attack? Disruptive
Force 5 Surprise Move? Force Alter/Jedi Mind Trick? Force Cloak?
I put question marks beside what wasn't integral to the piece. The base stats can be lowered, too, because he is going to have more abilities than The Dark Woman. Using Force Cloak instead of Cloaked could lower the cost a bit too, but limits his FP use, so we'll have to make a decision on that. Other than that, we're going to have to choose from Cunning Attack, Force Alter, Jedi Mind Trick, and Surprise Move. Personally, I would like to see JMT and Surprise Move the most, followed by Cunning Attack if we can squeeze that in there (using it would also allow us to lower the attack further, if we want), and the Force Alter.
Thoughts?
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Post by gwek on Mar 16, 2010 13:44:09 GMT -5
If we're putting things in order, my preference would be:
1) Force Alter (currently, only one Republic piece [Supreme Chancellor Palpatine] has it, and it fits his deceptive nature, as well as the fact that he was able to survive duels against opponents who were much better than he was)
2) Jedi Mind Trick (for the same thematic reasons noted above, althouhg the most recent Qui-Gon is another piece in his price range that has it)
3) Surprise Move (an under-used power that works well with Cloaked. Possibly worth noting that the cheapest piece with Surprise Move is currently 39)
4) Cunning Attack: Jedi with damage boosters are usually pretty rare, and I don't know that Tholme "deserves" to make that short list.
As for Disruptive, I know you guys are hot to give it to him, but consider the faction ramifications as part of the decision. There are currently 9 10 pieces with Disruptive. The 5 cheapest (ranging in cost from 5 to 18) are Rebel, while Talon Karrde (24) and the three most expensive (ranging from 48-54) are New Republic.
Nym, at 48, is the only option that most factions have for Disruptive. Do we want to give such a balance-tipping power to such a powerful faction for such an affordable price?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Mar 16, 2010 16:22:08 GMT -5
Force Alter and JMT are somewhat similar in therms of thematics, so I don't think we should include both of them if there are other options available and we want to keep his cost down.
Also, it is important to note that Force Alter isn't generally "deceptive", at least in terms of the pieces WotC awards it to. Most of the characters that have Force Alter are generally very powerful in the Force (Yodas, Luke Skywalkers, Chancellor Palpatine, Vodo-Siosk Baas), or are Jedi Consulars or are untrained in the Force (Human Force Adept). The Chancellor may be somewhat deceptive, but he is very powerful in the Force and his use of Alter could reflect his control of the Clone Wars (and gameplay synergy with Betrayal) more than his deception.
Surprise Move: The cheapest piece with Surprise Move may cost 39 points, but the cheapest piece with Intuition costs 13 points, so I don't think cost is going to be a problem.
Cunning Attack: While it is true that Jedi with damage boosters are somewhat rare, most of the recent Force users in Tholme's cost range (20-30) usually have Double Attack or some kind of damage booster, unless they have a gimmick other than their attack. If Tholme keeps Disruptive, Cunning should be dropped, but if not, Cunning should stay.
Disruptive: You bring up a good point, Gwek. When I originally supported the Cloaked/Disruptive/Surprise Move combination, it was under the condition that his cost was relatively high (at least mid 30s). If we want to keep Disruptive, we might have to add some things back on to get his cost back up. Here's some more stats:
Tholme
Cost: 35+ Hit Points: 90-100 Defense: 18-19 Attack: 8-10 Damage: 20
Unique Melee Attack Cloaked Double Attack/Cunning Attack Disruptive (Recon?)
Force 5/Force 1, Force Renewal 1 Jedi Mind Trick Force Alter Surprise Move
I read surfrider's post again, and he mentioned Tholme being like a spy or investigator, so Recon would be a natural possibility (it would also be very interesting with Cloaked and Surprise Move). FR1 is a possibility if we need to increase his cost (another possibility would be to change Cloaked to Force Cloak and keep FR1 and the cost won't change as much). We could add in Avoid Defeat if we don't want Recon and we need to raise the cost a bit.
So, do we want to go with the expensive or cheap version?
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Post by Roque Saber on Mar 16, 2010 16:57:55 GMT -5
I would opt for a cheap version. As for cunning, I think it's more whether or not he has Double, not Disruptive. For his potential cost (high 20's to mid 30's), he should at least be able to deal 30, regardless of Disruptive.
Well, the Rebels have 5 pieces with Disruptive all of whom are under 18 points...Republic have zip. I don't think that's an issue.
Surprise Move is also a good choice. Like BH9 pointed out, the Gotal Merc has the even more potent version (in Intuition) at 13 points.
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Post by gwek on Mar 16, 2010 21:25:43 GMT -5
I read surfrider's post again, and he mentioned Tholme being like a spy or investigator, so Recon would be a natural possibility (it would also be very interesting with Cloaked and Surprise Move). Are you familiar with the character? Tholme is a spy, but he's basically the spymaster for the Jedi Order. He runs a network of spies, arranges missions, etc. He DOES gather intel on his own, but more often, it's from people he knows, etc. (This "master of the spy network" angle is a large part of the reason I felt he should be a commander.) As an aside, the writer noted that Tholme was originally based in part on Sherlock Holmes, although personally I never saw much of the "brilliant deduction" aspect. Tholme is a schemer, a bit of a manipulator, a leader from behind the scenes, someone who is willing to straddle the line of light and dark... In a very real sense, he's the closest thing the Jedi Order has to someone who thinks like Palpatine.
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Post by gwek on Mar 16, 2010 21:29:46 GMT -5
Well, the Rebels have 5 pieces with Disruptive all of whom are under 18 points...Republic have zip. I don't think that's an issue. I respectfully disagree and think that it is definitely an issue worth considering. The most powerful factions are typically powerful because they have a big bag of tricks, as well as a versatile enough stable of characters that they can build solid squads around them. Cheap Disruption is one of the few tricks that the Republic DOESN'T have right now. Do we really want to make the Republic more powerful?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Mar 16, 2010 21:49:10 GMT -5
I read surfrider's post again, and he mentioned Tholme being like a spy or investigator, so Recon would be a natural possibility (it would also be very interesting with Cloaked and Surprise Move). Are you familiar with the character? No, not really. I read up on him on the Wook, for what that's worth. Surfrider's comment just brough Recon to the front of my mind, and it would be a lot of fun with Cloaked and Surprise Move. As for Disruptive, well, it's kind of difficult to decide if Tholme would be better as a cheap character with it or an expensive one. The Rebels have cheap Disruptive, but it is very easy to kill the cheap characters with it in one activation, even without CEs. It's mostly a one-shot, strategic ability on cheap characters. With the expensive NR characters, however, it's much more gamechanging. KKJBM is extremely difficult to kill when he's powered up by Wedge and Leia, and Disruptive comes into play a lot. I think that, IF we give Tholme Disruptive, he should cost on the higher end because he'll almost undoubtedly have Cloaked. So, if we go with the cheaper version, we'll probably have to lose Disruptive.
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