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Post by gwek on Apr 2, 2010 17:40:56 GMT -5
I still don't think the Republic needs strong options from TNLT. They're already strong enough.
One movement breaker would be more than enough on him. They're rare enough to begin with, and I don't think there are any pieces with access to two movement breakers. Pairing that power combo with Disruptive is, for lack of a better term, ridiculously, um, disruptive.
I also don't think that Ambush would be appropriate for the character.
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Post by surfrider56 on Apr 2, 2010 18:19:02 GMT -5
Well ... from zero to a bunch of discussions in 12 hours ...
For once, I agree with G; Ambush doesn't "Feel" like Tholme. He's sneaky, but not offensively in that way. He might perceive a good opportunity to attack (cunning) but wouldn't actually plan one (Ambush.)
I also agree with BH; I like Surprise Move; THAT feels like "Tholme" in that he would do something unexpected ...
My take on the Republic's power/abilities compared to the other factions? Of Course they're more powerful! They're the freeking Republic ... you know "Over a thousand generations ..." You don't do that accidently. I also don't buy into the "20% of cost = equivalent damage." Not everything in life is on an equal basis; why should Tholme or any piece be. Is it fair gamewise? No, but then again I'm a Historian, not a mathematician. Which brings me to another remark I'd like to make.
I try to balance my take on things with playability vs. "historical accuracy." For some reason, in regards to Tholme I've latched onto the accuracy of what I perceive to be Tholme vs the playability of Tholme (on a sidenote G, you tend to do the opposite in that you want to balance all factions out vs Historical Accuracy.)
I can't seem to let go of this one, so in the Cunning vs Double discussion, I may need to bow out.
But no to Ambush and yes to Surprise Move ......
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Post by gwek on Apr 2, 2010 22:48:50 GMT -5
My take on the Republic's power/abilities compared to the other factions? Of Course they're more powerful! They're the freeking Republic ... you know "Over a thousand generations ..." You don't do that accidently. An interesting take, but based on shaky logic. The vast majority of that "thousand generations" is actually the OLD Republic, which stood for almost 25 thousand years, until the Ruusan Reformation, less than a thousand years before the prequels. Although history would sweep the Republic and Old Republic under the same category name of "the Republic", in the minis game, they are actually divided into two distinct factions: the Old Republic (representing a political institution that stood for almost 25 thousand years) and the Republic (which existed for about 4% of that time). If you want to go with historical accuracy, you should probably be trying to favor the Old Republic as much as possible, since the institution lasted for so long! Squad design theory would state that a well-designed squad includes an efficient rate of damage (among other things). Every point you're spending on pieces that produce damage in an efficient manner should be spent on "tech" or support for the damage-dealers. To do otherwise is simply not efficient... according to squad design theory. Clearly, there are oodles of SWM pieces that are "inefficient," and while I can see the argument for "Cost X should produce Damage Y" side of things, this is where I say "Bah! The Republis is already strong enough! Their custom pieces don't need to be efficient!" (My very long-winded way of saying that while I see what the others say, I agree with you.) Hey, I make no bones about my desire to make all the factions playable, competitve, and on roughly equal footing. While I normall advocate sticking to the way WotC does things as much as possible, I think it's a travesty that only 3-4 of the game's 10 factions are actually competitive. They say that history is written by the victors; here, it's created by the movies. I will admit that I don't generally factor in historical accuracy in a broad sense. I ask myself two questions: 1) Is this an accurate representation of the character itself? and 2) What impact will this have on the overall game? (I guess that's the writer and editor in me, respectively, coming to the fore.)
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Post by surfrider56 on Apr 7, 2010 13:00:24 GMT -5
.... and back to zero discussion. On a lighter note, we should all be getting our new sets/pieces any sec now ....
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Post by gwek on Apr 8, 2010 8:39:05 GMT -5
Things seem to have ground to a halt. Although it might have to do with the new set--I'm not getting my 2 cases until Friday, gorrammit!--I have a concern that it might have to do with the fact that we don't have a clear next step or agenda. There are currently 2 pieces that are unapproved (technically 3, but Joruus is just waiting for the lock-down). We need to see a card for Celeste, which means that the ONLY piece still requiring discussion is poor ol' Tholme. Once he's done, we need to figure out what our next step is. Since we don't really know that, I have a feeling that on some subconscious level, some folk might be holding out finishing him so we don't have to worry about it just yet... If I recall correctly, the stats we were looking at looked something like this: Tholme Faction: Republic Hit Points: 90 Defense: 19 Attack: 10 Damage: 20 Unique Melee Attack Avoid Defeat Cloaked Cunning Attack or Double AttackDisruptive Force 4 Force Alter Jedi Mind Trick Surprise MoveI have highlighted in red the things that I feel require discussion (based on previous conversation). Based on the well-established precedent of existing melee pieces with a Force-rating, I advocate Double Attack over Cunning Attack. Surprise move concerns me because I think that Cloaked/Disruptive is already quite a potent (and interesting/unique) combination. To put a movement breaker on top of that (especially with the introducting of Vergere, a Fringe Force battery) seems excessive. If we cut Surprise Move, I'd be okay with giving him Force Renewal (along with a lower starting Force Rating) to "make up for it. Heck, I wouldn't mind giving him Master of the Force, so he can use Force Alter and JMT a little more (as long as his cost reflected it). (These opinions will likely not come as a surprise to anyone who has read this thread, but I'm trying to jump-start conversation, and hopefully focus us on the points of contention.)
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Post by surfrider56 on Apr 8, 2010 15:00:12 GMT -5
Actually, I believe the next "step" would be to create cards and the Custom Mini's with instructions on making them. I can help on the card making to some extent, and I have ideas for some mini's but making instructions would be beyond me ... interesting because its my job to explain stuff ... but oh well.
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Post by gwek on Apr 8, 2010 18:56:49 GMT -5
Hey, I'm all for those next steps, but that also seems to have ground to a halt. There was some conversation on it that kinda went nowhere. And now most folk seem kinda... gone. A shame it's slowed down with us so far along.
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Post by Dendrite on Apr 8, 2010 21:19:31 GMT -5
Hey, I'm all for those next steps, but that also seems to have ground to a halt. There was some conversation on it that kinda went nowhere. And now most folk seem kinda... gone. A shame it's slowed down with us so far along. I'm sure once we're past the 'new set chaos, things will come back together.
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Post by xpraider on Apr 9, 2010 6:16:31 GMT -5
Kind of depends on how many people are still interested now that the game is 'over' from a manufacturing and design standpoint (and now is fan run).
But anyway, on Tholme. I think either opportunist or Cunning Attack could work for him. He's sneaky that way. But I think disruptive with stealth pretty much sums up what he does when he's in the enemy base the best. Ambush could also work, but I'd actually like to see him have at least double attack, especially at his current price.
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Post by gwek on Apr 9, 2010 9:46:49 GMT -5
I would maybe do something like this:
Tholme Faction: Republic Cost: low/mid 40s Hit Points: 80 Defense: 19 Attack: 10 Damage: 20
Unique Melee Attack, Double Attack Avoid Defeat Cloaked Disruptive
Force 1, Force Renewal 1 Master of the Force 2 Force Alter Jedi Mind Trick
*****
Between Force Alter, JMT, and Disruptive, he becomes the ultimate "spoiler" piece. He can't dish out any more damage than the average Jedi in terms of HP, but in terms of messing with enemy tactics, he he's potentially second-to-none.
He has relatively low stats to balance this versatility--but good defensive abilities to compensate for THAT!
Neither of his Force powers replaces attacks, so with MotF, he can potentially double attack AND pull two Force tricks, assuming he's positioned correctly, and he's saved up a few FPs.
Although his relatively low HP mean that he needs to be played carefully, in the right squad (or, more to the point: AGAINST the right squad), he's potentially devastating as a tactics-breaker.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Apr 9, 2010 18:18:33 GMT -5
I would maybe do something like this: Tholme Faction: Republic Cost: low/mid 40s Hit Points: 80 Defense: 19 Attack: 10 Damage: 20 Unique Melee Attack, Double Attack Avoid Defeat Cloaked Disruptive Force 1, Force Renewal 1 Master of the Force 2 Force Alter Jedi Mind Trick ***** Between Force Alter, JMT, and Disruptive, he becomes the ultimate "spoiler" piece. He can't dish out any more damage than the average Jedi in terms of HP, but in terms of messing with enemy tactics, he he's potentially second-to-none. He has relatively low stats to balance this versatility--but good defensive abilities to compensate for THAT! Neither of his Force powers replaces attacks, so with MotF, he can potentially double attack AND pull two Force tricks, assuming he's positioned correctly, and he's saved up a few FPs. Although his relatively low HP mean that he needs to be played carefully, in the right squad (or, more to the point: AGAINST the right squad), he's potentially devastating as a tactics-breaker. I like this version (assuming everybody's good with the changes), but I think his HP should be bumped back up to 90 or 100. A 40+ point melee piece with only 80 HP is almost unprecedented (the exceptions being Komari Vosa, who is extremely outdated, and Jabba the Hutt, who is both outdated and has Fringe Reinforements 30). Also, it gives Tholme some staying power against the quad-attacking shooters that see so much play today. A towed Captain Rex or Cad Bane could kill this guy easily once they base him.
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Post by Dendrite on Apr 10, 2010 22:37:29 GMT -5
I would maybe do something like this: Tholme Faction: Republic Cost: low/mid 40s Hit Points: 80 Defense: 19 Attack: 10 Damage: 20 Unique Melee Attack, Double Attack Avoid Defeat Cloaked Disruptive Force 1, Force Renewal 1 Master of the Force 2 Force Alter Jedi Mind Trick ***** Between Force Alter, JMT, and Disruptive, he becomes the ultimate "spoiler" piece. He can't dish out any more damage than the average Jedi in terms of HP, but in terms of messing with enemy tactics, he he's potentially second-to-none. He has relatively low stats to balance this versatility--but good defensive abilities to compensate for THAT! Neither of his Force powers replaces attacks, so with MotF, he can potentially double attack AND pull two Force tricks, assuming he's positioned correctly, and he's saved up a few FPs. Although his relatively low HP mean that he needs to be played carefully, in the right squad (or, more to the point: AGAINST the right squad), he's potentially devastating as a tactics-breaker. I like this version (assuming everybody's good with the changes), but I think his HP should be bumped back up to 90 or 100. A 40+ point melee piece with only 80 HP is almost unprecedented (the exceptions being Komari Vosa, who is extremely outdated, and Jabba the Hutt, who is both outdated and has Fringe Reinforements 30). Also, it gives Tholme some staying power against the quad-attacking shooters that see so much play today. A towed Captain Rex or Cad Bane could kill this guy easily once they base him. Concurred
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Post by gwek on Apr 11, 2010 9:27:18 GMT -5
I'd be fine with upping the HP to 90 or 100... especially if it will get us closer to finishing the set! So do we have a potential winner?
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Post by xpraider on Apr 11, 2010 10:54:38 GMT -5
45 points?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Apr 11, 2010 12:35:29 GMT -5
I'd say 43 points with the HP at 90, and 45 points with the HP at 100. Which do we want to go with?
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