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Post by bountyhunter9 on Mar 3, 2010 17:25:29 GMT -5
Despite what I've said, I'd be willing to drop the CE. Mainly because it seems that most (if not all) want to drop it.
But, looking at the stats again, he looks like a pretty lousy support piece. Force Lightning 4, while deadly (mostly because it is nearly unstoppable), is not an efficient means of repeated attack, even with FR2, which I think is a necessity here. As for Palps and Joruus being a deadly combo...well, we already have VAU who can use Force Lightning 4 every round, so I don't see Joruus and a Force battery being a major issue. Add to that the fact that Joruus has no defensive abilities at all and that he will be quite a large target because of the Lightning, and he'll die really quickly after the first Lightning strike. Other than the Lightning, the only reasons to use him would be for Battle Meditation (extremely unlikely), or Dominate, and since Joruus will cost more than the other two characters with Dominate, it would be unlikely that he is used for that. He seems to offer little to a squad other than his versatility (ability to do auto-damage, improve combined fire, and use of Dominate). All of these can be done to a higher degree by more specialized pieces in the Imperial faction.
Which makes me think that he needs something else. Either a CE, a different battle meditation, a new or old ability of Force power, whatever, I think he needs something else.
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Post by Roque Saber on Mar 3, 2010 17:37:48 GMT -5
Looky looky what I found...
Battle Meditation 3 Force 3, replaces turn: Until the start of this character's next turn, allied commander effects have unlimited range and enemy commander effects are supressed.
From shinja's custom set on Bloo Milk. Although a little redundant because of Mas, it could prevent the need to spend 8 points on him, and supressing enemy CE's is really, really nasty.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Mar 3, 2010 19:43:49 GMT -5
Looky looky what I found... Battle Meditation 3 Force 3, replaces turn: Until the start of this character's next turn, allied commander effects have unlimited range and enemy commander effects are supressed. From shinja's custom set on Bloo Milk. Although a little redundant because of Mas, it could prevent the need to spend 8 points on him, and supressing enemy CE's is really, really nasty. That is a very interesting rendition of Battle Meditation, and it is really accurate to how the ability was used by Jedi. Here are some more custom Battle Meditations from Bloo Milk (all from the recently posted custom sets): Advanced Battle Meditation (Force 4, usable only on this character's turn: Until this character moves, attacks, or spends Force points, it gains Master Tactician and the following commander effect: Allies get +2 Attack and +2 Defense. This character's commander effects cannot be suppressed by enemy special abilities.) Battle Meditation 1 (Force 1, replaces turn: Until the start of the next round, this character gains the following commander effect: Allies gain Caution, Gregarious, and Quick Reactions.) Note: Caution is defined as Gregarious but provides +4 defense instead of +4 attack. IF we wanted to represent this, we could simply write out "[...] Allies gain +4 attack, +4 defense, and QR as long as an ally is within 6 squares", or whatever. Jedi Battle Meditation: (Force 3, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Disruptive and gains the following commander effect: Allies within 6 squares get +3 Attack and +3 Defense.) Sith Battle Meditation (Force 4, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character cannot use Force powers and it gets -4 Defense and gains the following commander effect: Followers within 6 squares get +4 Attack and +4 Defense and gain Twin Attack.) I'm not suggesting we use any of these, but they are very unique and offer multiple prespective of the power. Perhaps we could incorporate a few elements of some of them to make a good custom Battle Meditation. If we don't want want it, we can make that decision after coming up with the definition. We're not going anywhere soon, so unless Joruus becomes the last discussion open, we might as well explore our options.
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Post by surfrider56 on Mar 3, 2010 20:25:51 GMT -5
To be clear, we're talking swapping in a new BM in place of a CE?
OF the new choices, I'll vote for BM 3; BM 1 sounds like a one round giimick which may/may not be useful unless you've positioned people just right ...
ABM sounds off the top of my head like a lot of FP's for something to can be gotten elsewhere cheaper ...
JBM sounds nice actually (what piece had that) but not in character with Joruus.
SBM seems to neutralize him, and with all the other powers he has to begin with. Again, off the top of my head, unless he's in a very strange situation, why would you ever neutralize a powerful Force-User; the gain isn't worth the pain.
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Post by gwek on Mar 3, 2010 23:07:04 GMT -5
Other than the Lightning, the only reasons to use him would be for Battle Meditation (extremely unlikely), or Dominate, and since Joruus will cost more than the other two characters with Dominate, it would be unlikely that he is used for that. I disagree. He SHOULD cost more than the 2 existing characters with dominate, since he'll have significantly better stats than either one (much higher defense, and almost 3 times the HP), as well as some excellent attack options (Sly Moore has no attack capabilty, and the Bomarr Monk is limited to melee attack). Joruus, as currently statted, has 4 things in his favor: 1) Dominiate: A very rare ability, which is currently only on pieces that can do little besides Dominate. 2) Force Lightning: A big gun that he can pull out when the time is right. 3) Force Corruption: This is a cheap and relatively effective grunt-killer, as well as a way to wear down a stronger opponent. 4) Battle Meditation: A way to support his allies. Even if you throw out Battle Meditation as a substandard trick, he still pairs a very rare trick with two attack of very different cost and potency. Personally, I think that makes him very unique, and an interesting choice, assuming his price is right. But each of those specialized pieces is also LIMITED. Joruus's value is definitely in his versatility (again, assuming he's priced correctly). I'd be happy to have him stand as is, but am also willing to explore the other options we've got. Looking at the various custom meditations, I notice that the majority of them offer a +X/+X, which basically makes them Force Valor. If we're going to take that approach, why not just give him Force Valor? I agree with Surf that BM3 is the best of the lot, but I think suppressing all commander effects boardwide is too much. Yes, I know it's prohibitively pricey, but I still think it might be too much, especially on a piece who already has so many other tricks. If you thought Force Lightning 4 painted a target on this guy's back, BM3 moves him to the top of every "Kill on sight" list.
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Post by Roque Saber on Mar 4, 2010 2:07:26 GMT -5
But also remember that BM 3 replaces turn, so he won't be able to pull off more than 1 "trick" each round.
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Post by gwek on Mar 4, 2010 10:10:37 GMT -5
The value of a versatile piece like this is not necessarily in how many tricks it can do in a given round so much as how many tricks it has, period.
A versatile piece can fit successfully in more different types of builds because it has more options. That means it can benefit (and benefit from) more pieces. Assuming he's not priced too high, you can use Joruus in a game where you never use anything but dominate and you don't really feel the lack of the other stuff.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Mar 4, 2010 10:11:14 GMT -5
Other than the Lightning, the only reasons to use him would be for Battle Meditation (extremely unlikely), or Dominate, and since Joruus will cost more than the other two characters with Dominate, it would be unlikely that he is used for that. I disagree. He SHOULD cost more than the 2 existing characters with dominate, since he'll have significantly better stats than either one (much higher defense, and almost 3 times the HP), as well as some excellent attack options (Sly Moore has no attack capabilty, and the Bomarr Monk is limited to melee attack). Err, that's what I said. He will end up costimg more than Sly Moore and the B'omarr Monk.
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Post by gwek on Mar 4, 2010 11:25:07 GMT -5
Err, that's what I said. He will end up costimg more than Sly Moore and the B'omarr Monk. Sorry, I was writing fast. You say it like it's a BAD thing! If our Joruus (As-Is) were priced at 37 (for example), I think he's a bargain for the bag of tricks he offers, as well as being just cheap enough to pair him with many different types of characters. I guess we're debating how much that versatility is worth? Let's compare him to Sly Moore for a minute. For 28, you can have Sly Moore, who can use Dominate and who has 40 HP. Sly has no attack and a very low defense, and can easily be taken out in a single activation. Boom, there goes your 28 points, and your Dominate ability. Meantime, all that Sly can do is dominate and die. For less than 10 points more, you can have Dominate paired with someone who, right off the bat, has significantly more HP. Paired with the higher defense, it will likely take 2-3 activations to off Joruus. Add to that the fact that he has two different offensive Force powers, and you have the option to go on the offensive with this piece if you don't have an ally you want to dominate currently in position. Again, I think there's enough value in that that he's versatility is his strength, as long as the price is right (I would say no more than 39). I know. I was commenting on the odd pattern, I suppose. If we go with a version of this, I think we need to very carefully consider the extent of the CE suppression. That's a HUGE gun to hand to a faction as powerful as the Imperials. If this were an Old Republic piece, I would, of course, fully support its use. ;D
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Post by Roque Saber on Mar 4, 2010 12:55:55 GMT -5
But also remember that this was back in RotS days, and also that Dominate had not yet been errated, making it much more powerful than it now is. Nowadays, I don't people would play Sly unless he was closer to the high 10's. Dominate is just too unreliable, and it is commonly a one-trick pony.
As for BM3, I would rather just stick with what shinja had, making giving the suppression a range of 6 or 12 squares (probably 12, to make it an enhanced Disruptive, and so he won't have to be so close to the fight).
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Post by gwek on Mar 4, 2010 13:03:48 GMT -5
I was bringing in Dominate as one example. I understand that most people don't want to play Sly Moore. Arguably, Joruus As-Is WOULD be a piece with Dominate that people wanted to play. We put BM3 on him, and that drives the price up.
As for a range of 12, is there any power or effect that has a range of 12 in the game? I thought the progression was adjacent, 2, 6, unlimited?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Mar 4, 2010 14:00:02 GMT -5
Yeah, both piece with Dominate are very old (if I recall correctly, the B'omarr was from Universe), and overcosted today.
The only precedent for a range 12 ability that I can think of is Kouhun Infestation. Are we good with shinja's Battle Meditation 3 with a range of 12 to supress enemy CEs? Anyone else have any thoughts?
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Post by gwek on Mar 4, 2010 14:34:46 GMT -5
I like it better with a range of 6 myself, or perhaps upping the cost to 4-5. But, really, we've discussed Joruus for so long that I'm very close to where I'll just agree to anything.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Mar 4, 2010 17:04:14 GMT -5
Considering that the squad will most likely have Mas anyway, really the only advantage is surpressing the CEs. I think a range of 12 is good with a Force cost of 3 points (and Joruus' turn), and if we cost Joruus at 37-39, I'll be good with him.
Can we see some updated stats?
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Post by surfrider56 on Mar 5, 2010 20:37:53 GMT -5
Considering that the squad will most likely have Mas anyway, really the only advantage is surpressing the CEs. I think a range of 12 is good with a Force cost of 3 points (and Joruus' turn), and if we cost Joruus at 37-39, I'll be good with him. Can we see some updated stats? Is this where we are? Joruus C'Baoth Cost: 37-39? Faction: Imperial Hit Points: 110 Defense: 20 Attack: 0 Damage: 0 Unique Dominate (Replaces turn: Target living character takes an immediate turn under your control, which does not count as one of your 2 activations this phase, even if it has already been activated this round; save 11. The target character cannot move this turn.) Self-Destruct 40 (When this character is defeated, each adjacent character takes 40 damage) Force 2; Force Renewal 2Battle Meditation 1 (Force 2, replaces attacks: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains the following commander effect: Allies who combine fire grant an additional +2 Attack, and enemy characters cannot combine fire) Force Corruption 1 (Force 1, replaces attacks: range 6, non-Droids only: 10 damage, and target is corrupted. Each time the corrupted character activates, it must attempt a save of 11. On a failure, that character takes 10 damage. On a success, that character is no longer corrupted.) Force Lightning 4 (Force 4, replaces attacks: range 6; 50 damage to target. Huge or smaller characters are considered activated this round; save 16) Battle Meditation 3Force 3, replaces turn: Until the start of this character's next turn, allied commander effects have range 12 and enemy commander effects are supressed.
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