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Post by surfrider56 on Feb 23, 2010 20:42:43 GMT -5
If you want to stay true to his stated abilities, Dominate, Control Minds, Lightning, and Battle Meditation must be in there.
I can see the Self Destruct; Repulse? A CE? Maybe Doctrine of Fear instead of a CE he had followers more through fear or Dominate ... possibly Force Stun because he had "the capacity to induce fatigue and weariness" and I can't think of any other FP that would correlate
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Post by Roque Saber on Feb 24, 2010 1:14:29 GMT -5
Dominate would be cool. A very underused, and potentially powerful, ability. Not sure why Repulse 2 is there, let's keep it red until we get closer to the end. I still like the CE... (though I am biased towards it, so don't listen to me).
And I agree, Joruus will in no way eclipse Palps as their roles are completely different.
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Post by gwek on Feb 24, 2010 11:32:55 GMT -5
Control Minds is largely redundant, since it's a weaker version of Battle Meditation.
If we want to give him a "fatiguing" power, how about dropping out Repuse and giving him Force Corruption 10 instead?
Upon further consideration, I would suggest that we consider dropping the commander effect. He will get one from Battle Meditation, as is.
Maybe something like this?
Hit Points: 110 Defense: 20 Attack: 0 Damage: 0
Unique Dominate Self-Destruct 40
Force 2; Force Renewal 2 Battle Meditation 1 Battle Meditation 2 (Force 2, replaces turn; gains an as-yet-to-be-determined commander effect until the end of the round, or his next activation, or something) Force Corruption 1 Force Lightning 4
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Feb 24, 2010 15:29:01 GMT -5
He's looking really good, I like the use of Corruption 1 over Repulse 2. Dominate adds some good flavour and potent non-Force ability. I like where we're headed.
I see that you, Gwek, added in both WotC's Battle Meditation in addition to whatever our custom ability might be. That's certainly an interesting take, especially if both end up boosting combining fire in a powerful but not abusable way.
For our custom Battle Meditation, we could structure it so that, with a cost of 2 Force points and Joruus' turn, allies who combine fire grant a +10 bonus to damage on the attack, until the end of the round. Maybe add in something else that is something of a detrement to the enemy, like -2 attack or defense or speed or something.
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jhart
Jedi Padawan
Posts: 36
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Post by jhart on Feb 25, 2010 14:45:19 GMT -5
Control Minds is largely redundant, since it's a weaker version of Battle Meditation. If we want to give him a "fatiguing" power, how about dropping out Repuse and giving him Force Corruption 10 instead? Upon further consideration, I would suggest that we consider dropping the commander effect. He will get one from Battle Meditation, as is. Maybe something like this? Hit Points: 110 Defense: 20 Attack: 0 Damage: 0 Unique Dominate Self-Destruct 40 Force 2; Force Renewal 2 Battle Meditation 1 Battle Meditation 2 (Force 2, replaces turn; gains an as-yet-to-be-determined commander effect until the end of the round, or his next activation, or something)Force Corruption 1 Force Lightning 4 I like it. Instead of making a Battle meditation 2, lets take the quick and easy path by giving him force valor.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Feb 25, 2010 15:50:08 GMT -5
Control Minds is largely redundant, since it's a weaker version of Battle Meditation. If we want to give him a "fatiguing" power, how about dropping out Repuse and giving him Force Corruption 10 instead? Upon further consideration, I would suggest that we consider dropping the commander effect. He will get one from Battle Meditation, as is. Maybe something like this? Hit Points: 110 Defense: 20 Attack: 0 Damage: 0 Unique Dominate Self-Destruct 40 Force 2; Force Renewal 2 Battle Meditation 1 Battle Meditation 2 (Force 2, replaces turn; gains an as-yet-to-be-determined commander effect until the end of the round, or his next activation, or something)Force Corruption 1 Force Lightning 4 I like it. Instead of making a Battle meditation 2, lets take the quick and easy path by giving him force valor. The quick and easy path is often the path to the dark side.... Seriously, though, I don't think he should have Force Valor. Joruus never used the ability, and it doesn't reflect Battle Meditation well, if at all. I would rather go with either a new, custom BM in addition to WotC's BM, or WotC's BM with a complimentary CE.
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Post by gwek on Feb 25, 2010 16:33:34 GMT -5
Although I'm potentially sold on the idea of a Battle Meditation 2 (or whatever) that replaces turn, maybe we should put that on hold for now and see what commander effects we can come up with? That way, no custom abilities. So I guess we're tentatively looking at the following (with the addition of either a commander effect or Battle Meditation 2): Joruus C'BaothCost: Faction: Imperial Hit Points: 110 Defense: 20 Attack: 0 Damage: 0 UniqueDominate (Replaces turn: Target living character takes an immediate turn under your control, which does not count as one of your 2 activations this phase, even if it has already been activated this round; save 11. The target character cannot move this turn.) Self-Destruct 40 (When this character is defeated, each adjacent character takes 40 damage) Force 2; Force Renewal 2Battle Meditation 1 (Force 2, replaces attacks: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains the following commander effect: Allies who combine fire grant an additional +2 Attack, and enemy characters cannot combine fire) Force Corruption 1 (Force 1, replaces attacks: range 6, non-Droids only: 10 damage, and target is corrupted. Each time the corrupted character activates, it must attempt a save of 11. On a failure, that character takes 10 damage. On a success, that character is no longer corrupted.) Force Lightning 4 (Force 4, replaces attacks: range 6; 50 damage to target. Huge or smaller characters are considered activated this round; save 16) ***** Hmmm. Now that I start writing out the abilities, that's a LOT of text!
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Feb 25, 2010 18:40:50 GMT -5
I don't think the volume of text will be a problem. If it is, we could drop Force Corruption 1 or Dominate.
What kind of CE are we thinking of using if we leave out a custom Battle Meditation?
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Post by gwek on Feb 25, 2010 20:04:40 GMT -5
While I don't think it's a problem for Joruus (yet!), I think it goes without saying that, for a project like NL20, the stats all need to fit on a card. I think Joruus is still in the safe zone, but it's something we should think about.
I hope some of our heavier text approved pieces (Vergere and Lord Hoth come to mind!) fit on cards!
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Post by Roque Saber on Feb 26, 2010 13:55:03 GMT -5
Hmm...for a CE... I still like the ideas of buffing BM. But we've been having 6 pages of discussion about that, so maybe not...
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Feb 26, 2010 22:31:16 GMT -5
What ideas did we come up with for a CE that boosts BM? These are the ones I seem to recall:
1) Allies who combine fire grant +10 damage on the attack. 2) Allies who combine fire are not considered activated but may not combine fire for the rest of the round
Something like those two. Another possibility (not sure if this was or was not discussed already) would be granting a bonus to allies who combine fire that remains for the rest of the round. Something like, "Allies who combine fire gain +4 defense until the end of the round" or something.
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Post by Roque Saber on Feb 26, 2010 22:47:02 GMT -5
That could be cool. Something to give incentive to combining fire. Or maybe even:
Allies who combine fire grant +10 damage may move up to 2 squares after the attack has been resolved.
That might make it more of a strategic effect of when you want to combine fire to boost an attack, you also get to move.
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Post by gwek on Feb 27, 2010 0:28:54 GMT -5
Looking at these potential ideas, I can definitely see why there has been so much conversation without any resolution!
Before addressing individual ideas, I think it's important to consider the faction we're looking at. The Imperials are one of the Big Three, and are arguably one of the factions that can benefit the most from boosts to combine fire. Not only do they have access to cheap shooters for "combined fire fodder," but they also have commander effects to help that fodder survive. Further, since the majority of their heavy-duty attackers are melee, they stand to gain a lot from combined fire. (Of 99 non-melee Imperial pieces, only 5 have an attack of +10 or higher.)
Now, I'm not saying that we shouldn't buff Battle Meditation, but should bear in mind that Battle Meditation is already a pretty good option for the Empire.
Looking at some of the recent ideas noted:
1) Allies who combine fire grant +10 damage on the attack.
This is just "Improved Spotter," which I think is not a great idea. Not only does it undercut existing Spotter pieces, but it also removes the range limit, making existing Spotter pieces far less desireable as gameplay options.
Further, Spotter has existed since the second or third set. It strikes me as very likely an intentional game design/balance decision that the Empire doesn't exclusive access to it.
[bold]2) Allies who combine fire are not considered activated but may not combine fire for the rest of the round[/bold]
While most special abilties are "exceptions to the rules" in how they function, I think this one might be a bit much... although I could see a possible variant on it (more below).
Another possibility (not sure if this was or was not discussed already) would be granting a bonus to allies who combine fire that remains for the rest of the round. Something like, "Allies who combine fire gain +4 defense until the end of the round" or something.
I like this idea much better than the first two, although I'm not sure that it works thematically with Joruus. As I recall, he was sort of the opposite of offering defensive bonuses. As long as they accomplished what he wanted, he didn't much care what happened to his underlings.
Allies who combine fire grant +10 damage may move up to 2 squares after the attack has been resolved.
Extra damage aside, I like this idea better than the first two, but not as much as the third. While mechanically interesting, again, I don't really recall this being what Joruus "felt like."
From what I remember (and I'll admit that it's been a while), I seem to recall that his battle meditation was somewhat self-destructive. He didn't really care what happened to his lackeys as long as they got the job done. In fact, I seem to remember the soldiers actually being a little scared of being used by him.
The feel of that has me wondering of maybe we can look to the recent Force powers for inspiration and come up with a double-edged sword commander effect:
Allies who combine fire are not considered activated, but must make a save of 11. If this save is failed, the character who combined fire is defeated.
OR
When one or more characters combine fire with an ally, that all may do +20 damage on a successful attack. Select one of the characters who combined fire; that character is considered defeated.
I don't know, I'd kinda like to see a destructive commander effect on this guy, since the troops feared him.
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Post by Roque Saber on Feb 27, 2010 11:33:08 GMT -5
So on 'Pedia, it says BM raised the morale, stamina, and overall battle prowess of allies while reduced that of the enemy. Perhaps even if we don't incorporate all that into out possibly new BM, we could incorporate some of it into his CE. Dunno how, but we gotta capture the flavor of him.
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Post by surfrider56 on Feb 27, 2010 16:14:46 GMT -5
Just to play devil's advocate, since he's an unstable clone, I would think he's weaker in the Force, so wouldn't it make more sense to "weaken" his abilities, compared to the Jedi original, and give him a lower, not greater BM ... which is why I mentioned Control Minds.
Strong Force abilities? Sure, but as an example, if Jorus was capable of Force Push 3, Joruus should only be capable of Force Push 2, or even less; so instead of a full blown BM, a lesser ability?
I just have a feeling a cloned Force user would be less powerful than the original, if only for the simple reason that the original had a lifetime of practice using the Force as opposed to just waking up and .... Whoomp there it is ....
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