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Post by bountyhunter9 on Feb 16, 2010 17:44:37 GMT -5
Regular BM would be cool if it didn't suck. Yes, but why should it suck less for C'Baoth than for Bastila Shan? Frankly, I don't know that it should (especially from a game balance point of view). WotC gave us Battle Meditation statted a particular way. They had two opportunities to change it and chose not to. WotC has made many mistakes with SWM, both directly in the game and in business decisions. IMO, the way they statted Battle Meditation, one of the most powerful and rare Force abilities in the Star Wars universe, is one of the most prominent in-game mistakes they have made to date. One of the main reasons for making customs is to fix what we view as WotC's "mistakes" or "oversights", and BM is an excellent opportunity. In addition, I think that the SWM fans that are looking forward to the release of a second LT set will be looking forward to seeing a well-designed, powerful, and balanced Battle Meditation on Joruus (among other things). If we just tack on WotC's BM, some might feel that we took the "easy way out" and did a lazy job with Joruus. I think we really need to focus on cranking out an excellent BM here. Since posting my thoughts earlier, I've though of some more (less specific) possibilities. I think another way of working here would be to look at what the factions other than the Imperials have in terms of CEs, and see if we can pick one out that is both effective, balanced, and doesn't obsolete existing Imperial CEs. I'm going to look through Bloomilk's list of CEs now, and see if I can come up with anything. You guys can look too (I won't be able to cover all of them), and post if you find any good ones.
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Post by gwek on Feb 16, 2010 19:59:26 GMT -5
WotC has made many mistakes with SWM, both directly in the game and in business decisions. IMO, the way they statted Battle Meditation, one of the most powerful and rare Force abilities in the Star Wars universe, is one of the most prominent in-game mistakes they have made to date. While I don't, in theory, disagree, that battle meditation was flubbed, I don't necessarily agree that out job as customizers is basically to say "WotC screwed up. Look how much better we did." To me, part of what makes the challenge of customizing so interesting is that it combines creativity with using existing frameworks and options. Although I'm not necessarily saying it applies here, I think it is often laziness and/or a cop-out to create new powers when existing ones can be used. And if we can find something to fill the role, I'm all for it. However, there's been quite a bit of discussion about battle meditation and it hasn't lead anywhere useful yet. Not saying we shouldn't do our own battle meditation, but if we can't come up with a good one, there's a serviceable Battle Meditation that already exists. That is certainly one valid point of view. At the other end of the spectrum, there are going to be fans looking at what we produced and wondering how "fan boy" we got. Speaking for myself, one of the first things I do when I look at a custom is look at how many new abilities the customizer created. And, I gotta be honest, I often think that a customizer who is creating new abilities willy-nilly doesn't really know what they're doing. I would fully expect that if WotC did a Joruus C'Baoth, he would probably have the existing Battle Meditation (which, I will admit, is a pretty lousy ability... but the Imperials are possibly the faction that can benefit most from it). This is just one aspect of the character. If we're going to get creative, I respectfully submit that looking at commander effects is the wrong way to go. Part of the problem with the existing Battle Meditation is the design. In the EU, that's now how Battle Meditation works. It's not some one-off power you focus on for a minute, and then you help your allies for the rest of the fight. No, Battle Meditation requires CONCENTRATION and ongoing focus. Most examples of Battle Meditation show the practitioner, well, MEDITATING, often to the exclusion of their immediate surroundings. Battle Meditation can be disrupted fairly easily (by an attack for example). Often, the character is exhausted afterward. If we want to create an accurate Battle Meditation, it should reflect those elements, not attempt to mirror the existing (and flawed) Battle Meditation by giving out yet another commander effect for a one-off Force-point use. In execution, Battle Meditation as depicted in the EU would probably look something like this: Battle Meditation (Force 1; replaces turn. Until the end of this turn or until this character is defeated, living allies (within 6 squares) gain [insert benefit here]).
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Post by Roque Saber on Feb 17, 2010 1:13:34 GMT -5
QFT. That's exactly how I feel. If a new BM absolutely must be made, let's do it. If we can get creative and cope with what we have, all the better.
So the question is, can we figure out a way to make Wizard's BM useful?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Feb 17, 2010 22:36:36 GMT -5
WotC has made many mistakes with SWM, both directly in the game and in business decisions. IMO, the way they statted Battle Meditation, one of the most powerful and rare Force abilities in the Star Wars universe, is one of the most prominent in-game mistakes they have made to date. While I don't, in theory, disagree, that battle meditation was flubbed, I don't necessarily agree that out job as customizers is basically to say "WotC screwed up. Look how much better we did." We're not making a new BM to show that we are better at making custom stats than WotC is. We are making it to provide an alternative to what they have already laid out for us. It will be the decision of the person that reads the stats as to whether or not our BM is better than WotC's. I agree with you here. I'm am confused by this statement, however. Are you honestly suggesting that it is LAZY to be proactive? The only way this could possibly be considered lazy would be if one knew than an ability already existed, but was too lazy to look up the definition, and as such made a new one. Not the case here, and often not the case with customizers, many of whom know the game better than the average player. I wouldn't quite say it's serviceable. More like passable, if we make it work. I think these thoughts are at least somewhat exaggerated. While a piece with five or six custom abilities is most likely not well-designed, we're not looking at a piece with five or six custom abilities. It is just one aspect of the character, but it is a very important aspect. I was looking merely for ideas, not to exactly copy an existing CE. There wasn't much left to do, as no one seems to like each others suggestions and not too many members are posting their ideas, or trying to come up with some. Now this, on the other hand, is an excellent starting point. I knew that there was something wrong with how we were proceeding with it, because we couldn't come up with anything, but this may set us on course. I think we should go with this version over a straight-up CE. But we still need to figure what to use for the benefit for the CE. As an after-thought, we should try to reflect BM's nature of draining the will from enemy armies in the ability, if we can. We should keep this aspect of the ability in mind whe creating it.
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Post by Roque Saber on Feb 18, 2010 0:49:28 GMT -5
So have we decided to create a new BM ability, or are you referring to a CE? As for the "draining the enemy", I think an attack deduction would represent that well.
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Post by gwek on Feb 18, 2010 15:26:38 GMT -5
We're not making a new BM to show that we are better at making custom stats than WotC is. We are making it to provide an alternative to what they have already laid out for us. It will be the decision of the person that reads the stats as to whether or not our BM is better than WotC's. But we're not making an alternate Cunning Attack or Evade or Lightsaber Block. Making a new Battle Meditation does really border on "We're fixing WotC's mistakes." I don't see anything explicitly proactive in this situation. I'm suggesting that it's lazy not to work within the existing framework, to "play by the rules," if you will. I am not necessarily suggesting that THIS instance is lazy, but as someone who looks at a lot of customs (here and elsewhere), I do find that there's a correlation between laziness (not to mention questionable design) and creation of custom abilities. Again, to be clear, I'm not accusing anyone here of that in this thread, but excessive custom abilities risk making a product look amatuer. I'm looking at the big picture, not necessarily the individual piece. We currently have 16 approved pieces, with almost a dozen new abilities. That does not include what we're doing here or with Celeste Morne (I don't imagine Tycho Celchu, for example, will be sporting too many new abilities...). This is a much higher ratio of new abilities than WotC sets have overall, and (in my opinion) risks making the set look "fan boy" as an aggregate result. Now, of course, I probably sound like a hypocrite because I created and/or pushed for at least half of those new abilities, but my feeling is that we shouldn't create something new if something already exists that can fill the spot. And it's not an important aspect of Bastila Shan? Yet we're saying that this should be better than she was?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Feb 18, 2010 16:25:33 GMT -5
We're not making a new BM to show that we are better at making custom stats than WotC is. We are making it to provide an alternative to what they have already laid out for us. It will be the decision of the person that reads the stats as to whether or not our BM is better than WotC's. No, we are not making a new Cunning Attack or Evade or Lightsaber Block, because we do not need to. These abilities are very simple and effective, and in no way relate to Battle Meditation. It would be like comparing Disintegration to Grenades 10; there are no similarities. And again, why should we go out of our way to avoid this? Why has this suddenly come up now? I draw you attention to Chief Chirpa's commander effect, from this set: Allied Ewoks gain Swarm +4 (+4 Attack against a target for each allied Ewok adjacent to that target) and Flurry Attack (Whenever this character scores a critical hit, he can make 1 immediate extra attack). Certainly looks like we're "fixing" WotC's mistake to me. I don't think lazy is a good word to describe this circumstance. More like rebellious or ignorant. But, that doesn't really matter. Yes, it does. But we are looking at a single new ability, when we created a grand total of three on another piece in this set. I think this discussion belongs there (however, he's been finalized already). I counted through the finalized pieces, and (ignoring "new" abilities like variations of Rapport or Affinity, or new "title" abilities), I came up with 11 total. As far as I know, Celeste will have two new abilities, and Joruus here may have one. So that's 13 or 14 new abilities, out of 20 characters, or about 65% to 70%. That is actually quite high. By comparison, WotC's most recent set, The Dark Times, has (at my count) 17 new special abilities or Force powers, not including things that I would have discounted in my count with the NLT (like Jedi Bodyguard), out of 40 characters. That amounts to about 43% of the set. A LOT lower than what we have here. However, three of those custom abilities come from Watto, whose custom abilities are not really necessary, at least not as much as a new Battle Meditation would be here. I think we should open up a discussion on his stats rather than worry so much about the set appearing so "fan-boy" because Joruus has a new Battle Meditation. We designed neither Bastila nor her Battle Meditation. If we were to, I'm certain she would have a more powerful Battle Meditation. It is, other than possibly her relationship with Revan, the most important aspect of the character. Just because WotC screwed up royally on the ability doesn't mean we shouldn't make a new, improved Battle Meditation. In fact, it should only encourage us customizers to make a new one.
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Post by gwek on Feb 19, 2010 11:58:47 GMT -5
BH: Bear in mind that part of my potential issue here goes like this: 1) Battle Meditation already exists. 2) No one really likes it. 3) However, a good deal of discussion here (as well as on various boards since CotF was released) has yet to produce a suitable replacement. Ultimately, the discussion of what to do about Battle Meditation seems to be derailing progress on this character. To my way of thinking, since Battle Meditation already exists, one logical solution is to use it and get on with the rest of the discussion. I draw you attention to Chief Chirpa's commander effect, from this set: Allied Ewoks gain Swarm +4 (+4 Attack against a target for each allied Ewok adjacent to that target) and Flurry Attack (Whenever this character scores a critical hit, he can make 1 immediate extra attack). Certainly looks like we're "fixing" WotC's mistake to me. I wholeheartedly disagree here. Chirpa does what a good commander effect often does: he takes some outdated (unplayable?) pieces, polishes them up, and makes them once again playable within the new dynamic of the game. SWM constantly evolves (well, at least until April), and often the only way to "salvage" older pieces who may have fallen to the wayside is via synergy (most notably, commander effects). Something like Chirpa's commander effect addresses that evolution in a productive manner. That is fundamentally different than "You flubbed on this power, so we're making a replacement version." If you had an issue with Watto, you should have raised it in that thread. If I recall correctly, you created one of the new special abilities and praised another. The thing with Watto (as opposed to C'Baoth) is that he's a "niche" character with very different capabilities from a standard piece. To get him to "fit" into a skirmish game, it's necessary to be creative. Another good example is, say, Darth Nihilus. While I don't think WotC's piece is a good representation, he definitely feels (and plays) different from other Jedi/Sith. In this case, C'Baoth has a lot of capability that can be easily represented by existing abilities. If his Battle Meditation isn't quite spot-on to what he did in the books, it's only part of the character. Yes, those jibe with my approximate numbers. That's your opinion, and you're certainly entitled to it. My opinion, clearly, differs. As I've already noted, a niche character like Watto (or Celeste Morne--or Nihilus or Jar Jar Binks) would be very difficult to accurately reflect with something completely new. C'Baoth, on the other hand, I think CAN be done with existing abilities. All well and good, but again, we disagree. As I've said in multiple threads, one of the reasons I signed onto this project was to try to keep an eye on game balance and make sure it didn't look to "fan boy." I will continued to do that to the best of my ability. [/quote] Another point on which we disagree. If we create a new and "better" Battle Meditation, it potentially devalues the existing Battle Meditation and the pieces that have it. We've spent far too long hypothetically discussion Battle Meditation. I propose that we get back to actually discussing stats for C'Baoth. I further suggest that we use the existing Battle Meditation as a placeholder until/unless we can find a suitable replacement. If no suitable placement can be created, then we go with the "book" version. Regardless, I think we shouldn't let continued discussion of Battle Meditation derail overall work on the character.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Feb 19, 2010 16:23:57 GMT -5
BH: Bear in mind that part of my potential issue here goes like this: 1) Battle Meditation already exists. 2) No one really likes it. 3) However, a good deal of discussion here (as well as on various boards since CotF was released) has yet to produce a suitable replacement. Ultimately, the discussion of what to do about Battle Meditation seems to be derailing progress on this character. To my way of thinking, since Battle Meditation already exists, one logical solution is to use it and get on with the rest of the discussion. I draw you attention to Chief Chirpa's commander effect, from this set: Allied Ewoks gain Swarm +4 (+4 Attack against a target for each allied Ewok adjacent to that target) and Flurry Attack (Whenever this character scores a critical hit, he can make 1 immediate extra attack). Certainly looks like we're "fixing" WotC's mistake to me. I wholeheartedly disagree here. Chirpa does what a good commander effect often does: he takes some outdated (unplayable?) pieces, polishes them up, and makes them once again playable within the new dynamic of the game. SWM constantly evolves (well, at least until April), and often the only way to "salvage" older pieces who may have fallen to the wayside is via synergy (most notably, commander effects). Something like Chirpa's commander effect addresses that evolution in a productive manner. That is fundamentally different than "You flubbed on this power, so we're making a replacement version." If you had an issue with Watto, you should have raised it in that thread. If I recall correctly, you created one of the new special abilities and praised another. The thing with Watto (as opposed to C'Baoth) is that he's a "niche" character with very different capabilities from a standard piece. To get him to "fit" into a skirmish game, it's necessary to be creative. Another good example is, say, Darth Nihilus. While I don't think WotC's piece is a good representation, he definitely feels (and plays) different from other Jedi/Sith. In this case, C'Baoth has a lot of capability that can be easily represented by existing abilities. If his Battle Meditation isn't quite spot-on to what he did in the books, it's only part of the character. Yes, those jibe with my approximate numbers. That's your opinion, and you're certainly entitled to it. My opinion, clearly, differs. As I've already noted, a niche character like Watto (or Celeste Morne--or Nihilus or Jar Jar Binks) would be very difficult to accurately reflect with something completely new. C'Baoth, on the other hand, I think CAN be done with existing abilities. All well and good, but again, we disagree. As I've said in multiple threads, one of the reasons I signed onto this project was to try to keep an eye on game balance and make sure it didn't look to "fan boy." I will continued to do that to the best of my ability. We designed neither Bastila nor her Battle Meditation. If we were to, I'm certain she would have a more powerful Battle Meditation. It is, other than possibly her relationship with Revan, the most important aspect of the character. Just because WotC screwed up royally on the ability doesn't mean we shouldn't make a new, improved Battle Meditation. In fact, it should only encourage us customizers to make a new one. [/quote] Another point on which we disagree. If we create a new and "better" Battle Meditation, it potentially devalues the existing Battle Meditation and the pieces that have it. We've spent far too long hypothetically discussion Battle Meditation. I propose that we get back to actually discussing stats for C'Baoth. I further suggest that we use the existing Battle Meditation as a placeholder until/unless we can find a suitable replacement. If no suitable placement can be created, then we go with the "book" version. Regardless, I think we shouldn't let continued discussion of Battle Meditation derail overall work on the character.[/quote] I don't have time to break up this quote and directly comment on everything posted, so I'll just post, paragraph to paragraph, my responses to your post, just to avoid any confusion. As far as I know, we are done with Joruus, but we need to decide on a good Battle Meditation, or decide to use WotC's existing one (we need more input from other members on this issue). I'm not sure how you can differentiate "wholeheartedly" between Chirpa's commander effect giving Ewoks an improved Swarm and Joruus having an improved Battle Meditation. Battle Meditation, much like the Ewok, is extremely outdated, if it (BM) was ever playable. To use the archaic and near-useless Battle Meditation on Joruus would seem more cop-out than "fan boy" to many. Just to be clear, there is little difference between "we're making an old piece good again because it's outdated/sucks" and "we're making a new ability because WotC's old take on the ability is outdated/sucks." Both involve improving something old and outdated. I have NO issue with Watto, because I have almost NOTHING against custom abilities. But when someone brings up the issue of either including or excluding a potentially great custom ability from a piece, when there is a piece with three less interesting custom abilities that that member approved, is hypocrisy. I agree that Watto is a niche piece. And I have nothing against his having three custom abilities. But he COULD have been designed without any custom abilities, or with just one. He could have been designed in a way similar to Gha Nackht, but with another interesting dynamic instead of Rapport, such as his Repair Supplies or Salvager, or some kind of Affinity. But anyways, back to Joruus. Joruus is also something of a "niche" piece, though perhaps not as much as Watto. He'll be an expensive character with no attack or damage ratings (as far as I know), but will have Renewal 2 and Lightning to compensate for this. And then we come to his Battle Meditation, whether or not it's a custom one. Seems pretty "niche" to me. Also, just for comparison, the first Lost Twenty set had, at my count, 14 custom abilities out of the 20 characters in the set (under the same parameters as my other counts, and not including any abilities that later became WotC abilities, if there were any). In addition, just to be clear, you have never stated that you are trying to prevent this set from becoming too "fan boy". This just seems to have come up with Joruus for some reason. Your eye for game balance, however, is impeccable, and is one of the reasons that this set has been, for the most part, as good as it is. It is always good to know that you have someone that you can count on to tell you when you're wrong In regards to your comment on "outdating" pieces that have WotC's Battle Meditation, well I have to disagree. Not only are these pieces already outdated/unplayable (except, perhaps, Nomi, but she's part of the least playable faction in the game), but all three of them are in different factions from Joruus. What little place in the game they have now will not change based on whether or not Joruus has a custom Battle Meditation. I agree, though, that we need to finish up with Joruus, because we don't seem to be going anywhere. We need to decide what to do. A new, accurate Battle Meditation could make Joruus shine in this set, or we could go the lazy, or supposedly "correct" route, and throw WotC's near-useless attempt at Battle Meditation on him. It should be up to consensual decision; in other words, we need some more input from the other members.
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Post by Dendrite on Feb 19, 2010 21:38:38 GMT -5
I remain of the opinion that the Imps don't need anything more to buff up their stormies. I think that the route of regular BM plus a commander effect that amplifies it, via the routes of non-activation, etc.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Feb 19, 2010 23:18:19 GMT -5
I remain of the opinion that the Imps don't need anything more to buff up their stormies. I think that the route of regular BM plus a commander effect that amplifies it, via the routes of non-activation, etc. Why don't the Imperials have more things to buff their Stormies? They're not really as good as they may seem. Sure, they can get a 30 defense...but that requires 69 points of support, and they still have pathetic attack/damage scores. Throw in IE Thrawn for more offense (101 points of support now, Mas is 109) and swap/MT, and it's a decent squad. However, this type of squad is almost completely nullified by the ever-present Lancer and Yobuck squads. Not to mention that things such as Missiles, Lightning, Push, and Flamethrower slice through the Stormies' massive defense. And then their very low damage output. In addition, it's quite possible that using WotC's Battle Meditation with a CE that makes combining fire actually useful might make the Stormies more powerful than whatever we decide to do with BM. Either way, we'll have to be careful with what we decide to do.
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Post by gwek on Feb 21, 2010 22:40:44 GMT -5
Also, just for comparison, the first Lost Twenty set had, at my count, 14 custom abilities out of the 20 characters in the set (under the same parameters as my other counts, and not including any abilities that later became WotC abilities, if there were any). Yeah, I think that was my count, too. While I think the set is, overall, great, in restrospect, I'm struck by how weak some of the pieces that rely on newly created abilities look. (Weak in terms of quality/caliber, not strength.) For example, I think the WotC's Roron Corobb is a much less awkward piece than the one from TLT (which is also one of the pieces to rely on new abilities). You're probably right that I've not previously said that I didn't want to set to become to "fan boy." I think, however, that I've been quite clear in my desire to make it as "fair and balanced" and as "real" (ie, as much like something WotC might produce) as possible. Not letting it be too "fan boy" is one sub-set of that. Thank you kindly, sir. Again, thank you.... I think? Or maybe not? Seriously, though, if I come off as too harsh at times, it's probably the professional editor in me. I get paid to tell people when they're not doing their best, and sometimes, that's hard to shut off. Agreed. I think we need to get on with Joruus as a whole rather than just this single aspect of him. We can argue about that on the way.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Feb 22, 2010 15:47:21 GMT -5
Also, just for comparison, the first Lost Twenty set had, at my count, 14 custom abilities out of the 20 characters in the set (under the same parameters as my other counts, and not including any abilities that later became WotC abilities, if there were any). Yeah, I think that was my count, too. While I think the set is, overall, great, in restrospect, I'm struck by how weak some of the pieces that rely on newly created abilities look. (Weak in terms of quality/caliber, not strength.) For example, I think the WotC's Roron Corobb is a much less awkward piece than the one from TLT (which is also one of the pieces to rely on new abilities). I agree with you in the fullest. While the TLT set is great, it is obvious how outdated it is. On Roron, I agree that WotC did a better job. I don't think Repulse was around when the first TLT was created (I may be wrong) but Burst is nearly identical to the War Throat TLT's Roron has. True, very true. Lol. Yeah, this was meants as a (subtle) compliment. It is indeed good for one to be told when they're wrong, even if they don't really want to hear it (generally speaking). Yeah, I can see that. With posting the thoughts for others to read, the intended tone can be different from the mood the reader feels from the writer. And we're not all accomplished writers, nor do we spend hours on our posts, so there can be times when things are misinterpreted. I generally try to take everything as if it was meant to be stated in a benign way, because, after all, we're doing this because we enjoy doing it, so we should be enjoying ourselves. Agreed. More input is always good (even if you don't feel like breaking up an arguement, it's always good to post your thoughts and opinions). Here are the most recent set of stats for Joruus (from page 2, lol): I don't know if there were any solid changes made since this was posted. I think we should drop Warp Mind, especially if we make a custom battle meditation. I also think we should drop Impulsive Savagery, because I would NOT want a piece that cannot attack with Savage. It would be pretty awkward to have him sent into this blind rage where he ends his move next to an enemy but doesn't actually attack them. I could go either way on both Dominate and Repulse 2. HP range looks good, if I had to choose right now I would say 110, but a bit more HP either way would be good too. And of course everybody knows my thoughts on Battle Meditation. What does everyone think?
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Post by gwek on Feb 23, 2010 0:42:18 GMT -5
I agree on pretty much all your comments re: the stats. I'd see something like this (tentative material in red):
Hit Points: 110 Defense: 20 Attack: 0 Damage: 0
Unique Dominate? Self-Destruct 40
Force 2; Force Renewal 2 Battle Meditation Force Lightning 4 Force repulse 2 ?
Commander Effect:
Followers who combine fire grant an additional +10 damage and are not considered activated, but can still only combine fire once per round.
At it's heart, much of the above is similar to Emperor Palpatine (and Emperor Palpatine on Throne), so part of the challenge, I think, is in coming up with an alternative that will be useful without fully eclipsing Palpatine... and feels like Joruus...
Another tall order.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Feb 23, 2010 15:44:04 GMT -5
Looks good so far. I don't think we really need to worry about Joruus eclipsing either Palpatine, because their main use in a squad is as a Force battery, which Joruus won't be.
Do we want to give Joruus Force Repulse 2 and/or Dominate? What do others think of this?
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