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Post by xpraider on Dec 8, 2009 14:49:19 GMT -5
Here's my initial version of Lord Hoth.
Lord Hoth Cost: 64 HP: 140 Def: 21 Atk: 16 Dam: 20
Special Abilities: Melee Attack, Triple Attack, Lightsaber Duelist
Force: Force 4 Force Renewal 1 Master of the Force 2 Lightsaber Defense Lightsaber Precision Lightsaber Riposte
Commander Effect: Non-unique followers gain +4 attack and Twin Attack.
The idea behind Hoth is that he is a fairly nice bruiser and basic high end jedi. I don't recall seeing him use much beyond his Lightsaber and battle tactics, but I gave him duelist, riposte and MOTF2 to allow him to fight on the front lines of a battle with his troops.
His CE is meant to represent his ability as a general and battlefield commander.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 8, 2009 15:49:04 GMT -5
Nice start. His base stats and abilities seem good, though the attack may high by a point or two, but that's minor.
His Force powers look good, though his starting Force seems high (only RS/RI Emperor Palpatine has base Force 4 with Force Renewal), I would say 2 or 3 would be better.
The CE is very powerful, comparable to GaW Loathsome's, but it scares me with the OR. There's not huge numbers of effective non-Uniques for the OR, but this and the Exile and some powerful attackers could be very powerful. I think it's fine, because the OR has very little support, but it'll require more thought.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 8, 2009 17:50:58 GMT -5
I also like it. I think his attack is fine, to be honest. His HP, though, should probably go up to around 160. I also agree that 4 force is a lot, 3 seems just right for a Jedi of his caliber. I also think he should have at least one offensive force power. Nothing on Wookieepedia shows that he specialized in any particular power, so maybe just something like Push or Repulse would work.
Now for the CE. The +4 is great, but Twin is really powerful. I know Whorm just came out, but that was Rob's decision. We aren't trying to push the game into a new meta. Lets try to be creative and give him a more unique CE that can give the OR an edge, but not that much so.
Overall, it already looks great. We've got a nice solid base to work off of, keep it up!
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 8, 2009 18:41:32 GMT -5
I agree with RS. It depends on how you want to cost him, for the HP, an offensive Force power (which I think is a good idea) and the CE. Once we determine that, we can make the decisions. If you want him around 64, then 160 HP and a really good CE will be hard to fit in.
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Post by saber1 on Dec 8, 2009 18:57:02 GMT -5
Nice start. His base stats and abilities seem good, though the attack may high by a point or two, but that's minor. His Force powers look good, though his starting Force seems high (only RS/RI Emperor Palpatine has base Force 4 with Force Renewal), I would say 2 or 3 would be better. I agree on both points. Also, I wouldn't go above 150 HP. Sadly, there is very little source material for Lord Hoth that is helpful in creating stats.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 8, 2009 23:19:28 GMT -5
150 seems right in comparison to most existing pieces, but I'm thinking of GMY. He's 55 points, 9 less than our current Hoth. I don't think 160 would be that much of a stretch.
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Post by xpraider on Dec 9, 2009 2:25:28 GMT -5
When I made him I meant him to be a bit cheap for his cost, and I wanted something that would give a nice boost to the OR which I feel really need it, especially since they tend to get things fairly rarely. And considering how nasty the Republic and Rebels are atm, I saw him as being able to bring them more in balance then anything. Besides which I'm fairly certain there's a version of Grievous with this CE. Perhaps we could change his CE to +4/+4 Atk/Def. But yeah, I don't see a problem lowering his starting FPs either.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 9, 2009 14:15:21 GMT -5
Yes, OR definitely needs a boost, but they shouldn't get a full makeover with one character. A well rounded, powerful faction comes from lots of useful pieces, not just one. I think we could come up with something more interesting than a stat bonus as well, think creatively.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 9, 2009 16:02:12 GMT -5
I agree with RS on both accounts. With Lord Hoth, I always make comparisons to Mace Windu. I think 150 HP would be good if we want to keep his cost under 70, because he also has LS Defense and MotF 2. Some possible CEs for Lord Hoth would be:
Swapping Intuition for an ally (Revan's CE) Cunning Attack/Opportunist/Adv. Attack/Deceptive for followers within 6 Some form of tempo control (though we have to be careful here) General Skywalker's CE
That's a few of the good ones I can think of right now, that would fit here. Would one of these work? Or does someone have a better idea?
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Post by gwek on Dec 12, 2009 1:45:32 GMT -5
Although there will be a difference based on cost and the fact that one's a commander, one thing I'd like to avoid is making Lucien Draay worthless.
I agree that this is a solid start (although I'm going to throw out a few other versions for comparison), but I think one of the most important things we need to do here is find the right commander effect to help the Old Republic.
The initial one isn't bad, but it actually does a lot to de-value many of the Old Republic pieces (the Unique ones, who are the ones who really need the help!).
I have a few ideas, but let me throw this one out:
Allies gain Force Renewal 1. Allies with a Force rating gain Lightsaber Defense.
Although there are a few characters this wouldn't help too much, many of the Old Rep pieces could benefit from Force Renewal (and having it on an expensive character is a very different dynamic than what the Sith have).
The second part--Lightsaber Defense for everyone with a Force rating--gives the Old Republic some much-needed defensive capability (along with some more FPs to use it).
For comparison, here are a few other Lord Hoths.
This one comes from farDreamer:
dawfyyd's:
From Adun12345:
DarthSith's:
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Post by gwek on Dec 12, 2009 1:48:51 GMT -5
Now, there's a lot of variety in these various interpretations, buty you'll notice that they share at least one thing in common: they all do something with the Army of Light.
Lord Hoth is a military leader, true, but one of the things that makes him unique is that he's the Army of Light. That's something that I think needs to be in this character, no matter what else we do with him.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 12, 2009 9:27:47 GMT -5
Hey gwek! Nice to have you back. As for your suggested CE:
I don't know if "copying" the commander effects the Sith have is a good idea for Hoth. Giving all allies Force Renewal 1 is extremely powerful, it's even better than the CE of a certan 115 point character. The LS Defense aspect, while interesting, is somewhat awkward. I don't think there are any CEs from WotC that give out Force powers like that.
If we want to centre him around the Army of Light idea, something similar to Qui-Gon Jinn, Jedi Trainer's CE could work, since most non-Unique Jedi have attacks lower than 10.
Here are the stats for a Lord Hoth I created that was finalized a while ago. I'm not suggesting that we use the exact stats here, but oddly enough his CE or something similar to it could work here:
Lord Hoth, Jedi Master
Cost: 65 Hit Points: 150 Defense: 21 Attack: +14 Damage: 20
Special Abilities: Unique Melee Attack (Can only attack adjacent enemies) Triple Attack (On his turn, this character can make two extra attacks instead of moving)
Force Powers: Force 6 Lightsaber Block (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) Lightsaber Riposte (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character can make an immediate attack against that attacker) Lightsaber Precision (Force 1: This character gets +10 damage on his next attack)
Commander Effect: Allied characters with a Force rating start with +1 Force. Non-unique followers within 6 squares gain Advantageous Cover.
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Post by xpraider on Dec 12, 2009 11:54:40 GMT -5
I actually really like the idea of Army of Light and including non unique force users from the republic and new republic.
I haven't really been able to think of a strong commander effect for him yet though. The army was more than just jedi, so I think his bonus should count for non-unique followers, but going from the comic Jedi v Sith he came off as a very direct person and I don't think a swap would be appropriate for him. Maybe something like General Skywalker's CE would work for him, but I'm still not completely sold on it.
Here's a rework of him with some of your suggestions.
Lord Hoth Cost: 72 HP: 150 Def: 21 Atk: 16 Dam: 20
Special Abilities: Unique, Melee Attack, Triple Attack, Lightsaber Duelist
Force Powers: Force 3, Force Renewal 1 Master of the Force 2 Lightsaber Defense Lightsaber Precision Lightsaber Riposte
Commander Effect: Army of Light (A squad containing Lord Hoth may include Republic and New Republic Non-unique Force Users).
Non-Unique Followers gain momentum.
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Post by gwek on Dec 12, 2009 12:06:41 GMT -5
Hey gwek! Nice to have you back. Thanks! Good to be back! An infant and other projects (as well as annoyance at the new WotC forums) have kept me busy. It's all relative. The only reason Force Renewal isn't that great on GMLS is because his faction doesn't need it. If there was ever a faction that needs (and I think deserves) Force Renewal, it's the Old Republic. During the "Rescue the Old Republic" thread on WotC, someone had suggested either Force points for all allies or considering all allies to have a Force rating, because Hoth was forced to grab ANY Force-sensitive soldier, no matter how marginal. How about a variation (playing also off the idea of the Army of Light) that grants a "Squad" ability. Something like: Squad Spirit (Each time this character activates while 3 allies with the same name as this character are within 6 squares, he gains a Force point)(The also assumes that Hoth would have a special ability like this: Army of Light: All Old Republic characters in your squad are treated as having the same name.) This gives a variation on Force Renewal that would actually stack (effectively giving Lucien, the Exile and Nomi FR2). If used correctly, this is very powerful, but Hoth's high cost already limits squad design a bit, and the need for enough characters to use this limits squad options a bit further. I think something like this may be both within character for Hoth and also useful to the Old Republic without making them too potent. Yeah, and I'd be the first one to call someone else on it, too. I was hoping to sneak it past you guys! I guess what I REALLY want to give the Jedi of the Old Republic is Soresu Style. My concern with the Old Rep isn't the non-Uniques. I think they've always been better for their cost than the Uniques! Ultimately, I'd like to come up with something for Lord Hoth that feels uniquely like Lord Hoth and that also helps the faction overall. To the end, I think we're circling many good ideas but haven't quite hit on it yet.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 12, 2009 12:52:23 GMT -5
Then how about instead of LS Defense, give them Evade? For Army of Light, the things that pop into my mind are either Affinity to bring in non-unique "good guy" force users from light side factions (like the Affinity of "The Revanchist") or a Synenergy for force using allies. I'm not sure how we should do it, but there's a few ideas. Renewal is intersting, but a little bland. This is one of the reasons I was (though I might not openly admit) glad to have Peter replace Rob. The pieces, their stats, and most of all the CE's were getting very cookie-cutter like. We could use Renewal, but I think we could come up with an equally powerful and much more creative CE.
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