|
Post by fardreamer on Dec 28, 2009 14:43:25 GMT -5
Not really wordier than the Sep commander effects that impact Droids: Rakghouls [or Allies with Rakghoul Disease] are subject to this effect: that's the way to represent it. They are still savage, but her commander effect boosts them.
|
|
|
Post by fardreamer on Dec 28, 2009 14:49:36 GMT -5
OK, how about a little tweak... Celeste MorneCost: HP: 130 Def: 20 Att: 14 Dmg: 20 Special Abilities Unique Melee Attack Double Attack Muur Talisman (Whenever this character defeats a living character without Force rating, the defeated character gains Savage and Rakghoul Disease and immediately returns to play with 10 Hit Points as part of this character's squad) FP: Force 2, Renewal 1 Force Repulse 3 Force Lightning Force Bubble
Commander EffectCharacters with Rakghoul Disease are subjrct to this effect: Characters with Rakghoul Disease gain +3attack and +3 defense.
|
|
|
Post by xpraider on Dec 28, 2009 15:20:47 GMT -5
Well, going to her basic stats, I posted a version a few pages ago with the basic stats I think she should have. I don't think she warrants a high HP/Def/Atk. Beyond being a host for the Talisman she seemed like a fairly basic Jedi who hid in the shadows. Plus with what the Talisman is likely to do, I think she may need lower stats to help balance things out.
HP: 90 Def: 18 Atk: 9 Dam: 20 Special Abilities Unique, (Insert Muur Talisman Here), Double Attack, Melee Attack, Stealth
Force: Force 2, Force Renewal 1 Force Repulse 3 Force Lightning Force Bubble
CE: (Insert CE Here)
Not as good as what others have posted, but considering her abilities with the Talisman if her stats are too good we're just going higher and higher with her cost.
As far as the Raks under her control go. Once she took control of them, they stopped acting savage. They didn't attack or run to targets unless she told them to. They clearly weren't savage at that point.
|
|
|
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 28, 2009 22:57:20 GMT -5
What about 110 HP 19 def and a 12 attack? thats in between and quite agreeable. xpraider, why stealth? fardreamer, why do raks come back with only 10HP, that doesn't make much sense at all
|
|
|
Post by xpraider on Dec 28, 2009 23:00:38 GMT -5
She's a jedi shadow adept at going into cover and being an infiltrator. And quite honestly I'd rather have her have stealth to represent that than cloaked.
|
|
|
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 28, 2009 23:06:16 GMT -5
The issue with that is that she is now subject to Evade for cheap
|
|
|
Post by xpraider on Dec 29, 2009 0:50:32 GMT -5
As a Fringe character she's already able to get Evade and Mobile for cheap from either Rieekan or Wedge.
|
|
|
Post by fardreamer on Dec 29, 2009 1:57:19 GMT -5
What about 110 HP 19 def and a 12 attack? thats in between and quite agreeable. xpraider, why stealth? fardreamer, why do raks come back with only 10HP, that doesn't make much sense at all To be honest, I don't disagree with you, it was Rogue Saber's definition, and I thought it was the one folks liked. I was just tinkering with what was already there. I would just have them turn into rakghouls, but that's just me, and it's not entirely accurate, as has been said. The Talisman IS a powerfful weapon, so maybe her stats should be lowered as suggested, maybe; HP: 100 Def: 18 Att: 10 Dam: 20 I dunno
|
|
|
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 29, 2009 11:07:44 GMT -5
I mean a full health Rak is only 30 HP anyway, not very scary anymore.
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Dec 29, 2009 22:23:06 GMT -5
The only problem with that is that it was quite clear that the Raks under her control were not acting like savages. If game balance is the big issue we could always modify the effect so that she creates actual Raks instead of just giving non-Raks Savage and the Plague. And the problem with THAT is that it doesn't particularly reflect the way her Raks behaved. They wore armor, carried guns, could go on patrol, etc. While they are literally Rakghouls in an actual sense, in a gameplay sense, the stats of the Rakghoul piece do not accurately reflect what her minions were capable of. I think the problem is that there's no way to accurately stat her. Or, at least not without making concessions... The question is which concessions do we want to make? Correct. But they clearly weren't "just" Raks (as noted above). If (and this is a big if) we're going to give her the ability to transform opponents into "demi-Raks" (who will have all manner of statistics), I think there needs to be some game balance to this. Keeping them savage (and therefore exempt from most other commander effects) is a decent game balance... but, unlike the idea of "These characters are subject to only Celeste's commander effect", it works with an existing construct in the game and can allow a player to build a squad around it (by including a character with Empathy). Although not 100% accurate, I suggest Savage over a 1-commander only exception because it works with the existing rules and supports flexible squad building. That, of course, assumes that something like that is needed for game balance (which it might not be if all she can do is turn her opponents into Raks... but I don't think THAT'S particularly accurate to what she does in VECTOR...). Ugh.
|
|
|
Post by fardreamer on Dec 30, 2009 17:28:19 GMT -5
how about this:
Celeste Morne Cost: HP: 90 Def: 18 Att: 10 Dam 20
Special Abilities Unique Melee Attack Double Attack Muur Talisman (Whenever a non-unique enemy within 6 squares is defeated, it returns to play as a Rakghoul, and joins this character's squad) Stealth
Force Powers Force 2, Renewal 1 Force Bubble Force Repulse 3 Force Lightning
Commander Effect Characters with Rakghoul Disease are subjrct to this effect: Characters with Rakghoul Disease gain +3attack and +3 defense.
|
|
|
Post by xpraider on Dec 30, 2009 21:53:10 GMT -5
Not bad, but there are a couple of things off. First off, is that she has no way of coordinating them. Still being Savage, they still have to go after the nearest target. Another thing is what gwek was trying to say about them not being simply Raks, but being able to retain the skills they had when they were not Raks. And finally it doesn't take into account what happens with the Talisman when she dies.
|
|
|
Post by xpraider on Dec 30, 2009 22:14:20 GMT -5
The only problem with that is that it was quite clear that the Raks under her control were not acting like savages. If game balance is the big issue we could always modify the effect so that she creates actual Raks instead of just giving non-Raks Savage and the Plague. And the problem with THAT is that it doesn't particularly reflect the way her Raks behaved. They wore armor, carried guns, could go on patrol, etc. While they are literally Rakghouls in an actual sense, in a gameplay sense, the stats of the Rakghoul piece do not accurately reflect what her minions were capable of. I think the problem is that there's no way to accurately stat her. Or, at least not without making concessions... The question is which concessions do we want to make? Correct. But they clearly weren't "just" Raks (as noted above). If (and this is a big if) we're going to give her the ability to transform opponents into "demi-Raks" (who will have all manner of statistics), I think there needs to be some game balance to this. Keeping them savage (and therefore exempt from most other commander effects) is a decent game balance... but, unlike the idea of "These characters are subject to only Celeste's commander effect", it works with an existing construct in the game and can allow a player to build a squad around it (by including a character with Empathy). Although not 100% accurate, I suggest Savage over a 1-commander only exception because it works with the existing rules and supports flexible squad building. That, of course, assumes that something like that is needed for game balance (which it might not be if all she can do is turn her opponents into Raks... but I don't think THAT'S particularly accurate to what she does in VECTOR...). Ugh. Okay. So before I make another suggestion, I want to sum up what people want to see out of this character. 1: She turns people into Rakghouls in an instant, and can do it to multiple people. -Which we've pretty much already covered with the Force Repulse and turning when she defeats someone. 2: The Raks under her control retained their previous skills (at least as long as she was the one who converted them). 3: The Raks under her control weren't really savage or charging at foes unless Celeste ordered them to. 4: The Raks were solely under her control. 5: When Celeste died (or when Muur tried to take over another Force Sensitive) the Talisman would move to the nearest Force User and try to take them over. So, here's a suggestion. Muur Talisman (When this character defeats an enemy, that enemy is returned to play at 10 HPs, becomes part of this character's squad and gains Savage and Rakghoul Plague.) Rakghoul Master (Characters with Rakghoul Plague in this character's squad lose Savage, and are not subject to Commander Effects) A New Host (When this character is defeated, the nearest Force User within 6 squares save 11; on a failure that character joins this character's squad and gains Rakghoul Master, Muur Talisman, and A New Host) Now the reason I did Rakghoul Master the way I did was two fold. First off, it gets rid of the requirement for the Raks to go after other characters, but it still prevents them from benefiting from CEs. It also prevents anyone else with Empathy to allow them to benefit from CEs, such as the Jedi Exile or the Varactyl Wrangler. Now the only other thing with this is unless we change the wording on Rakghoul Master, there wouldn't be a point to giving her a CE, which I'm fine with since it makes A New Host easier to include as well. Basically I'm trying to include what everyone is looking for in her abilities. So using Fardreamer's stats: Celeste Morne Cost: HP: 90 Def: 18 Att: 10 Dam 20 Special Abilities Unique; Melee Attack; Double Attack; Stealth Muur Talisman (When this character defeats an enemy, that enemy is returned to play at 10 HPs, becomes part of this character's squad and gains Savage and Rakghoul Plague.) Rakghoul Master (Characters with Rakghoul Plague in this character's squad lose Savage, and are not subject to Commander Effects) A New Host (When this character is defeated, target the nearest Force User within 6 squares save 11; on a failure that character joins this character's squad and gains Rakghoul Master, Muur Talisman, and A New Host) Force Powers Force 2, Renewal 1 Force Bubble Force Repulse 3 Force Lightning Now granted it is a lot of words, but I don't know if we'll be able to do her without them. It also allows her to become a bit of a fighter if the situation calls for it, and while she doesn't boost the Raks herself, by losing Savage she is essentially allowing the player to control their actions.
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Dec 30, 2009 23:14:56 GMT -5
For Rak Master, what if instead of taking away Savage but not letting them benefit from other commander effects, it allowed Raks (possibly within 6 squares of her?) to not have to end next to an enemy?
I see what you're trying to do by getting rid of the option for Empathy, but I think, from a game design standpoint, it might be better to keep Empathy as a viable option. If a player wants to design a squad with Celeste, a character with Empathy, a certain other commander effects in mind, more power to 'em (but it's going to cost). I think keeping Empathy in as a possible part of the equation leads to more varied squad design ideas.
|
|
|
Post by xpraider on Dec 31, 2009 2:13:30 GMT -5
Well Savage has 2 parts to it.
Can't benefit from CEs
Must move adjacent to enemy if it is able to this turn.
Now, as I understand it, we want the first part to stay and we want to get rid of the second part.
There are two ways to do that. Get rid of Savage and reinstate that ability, or keep them Savage, but disable to second part. To be honest the easiest way to do it really seems to be just get rid of Savage and reinstate the first part.
As far as other CEs go. I thought the whole point of this was so that they weren't taking orders from anyone except Celeste, since she was effectively dominating them.
But I guess we can go by consensus to determine what we really want to do with it, and whether we want the Raks to have access to CEs with her in the squad at all.
|
|