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Post by gwek on Dec 24, 2009 21:28:29 GMT -5
Thanks. I'm not sure how much I like it myself, but I've been watching this thread for quite some time trying to figure out a good approach and had a hard time coming up with something that we hadn't already tried. I figured, why not try a completely different angle?
I think there have been a lot of good ideas, but a lot of them are tough to pull off in the game. Honestly, as we were voting for inclusion, I was sort of hoping Celeste wouldn't make it, because I knew she'd be so hard to do!
By the way, if we go with an approach like this, I think we may need to revise the definition of Rakghoul disease to include "adjacent" (for when a non-melee character is Rak'd).
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 25, 2009 0:28:53 GMT -5
Hmm...true. That would be funny, shooting people into Raks....
So, now that we've sort of settled on a definition for the Talisman, let's start building the rest of the stats. GWEk suggested Repulse 3 to boost the Talisman's effectiveness, and she was also seen using force lightning. Pedia also says she could use the force to protect against attacks, so Bubble seems like a fitting defensive power. As far as a fighter, though, she doesn't seem like anything incredible. Average abilities would probably fit.
Celeste Morne Cost: 45-55? HP: 130 Def: 20 Att: 14 Dmg: 20
SA: Unique, Melee Attack -Double Attack -Muur Talisman (Whenever this character defeats a living character without Force rating, the defeated character gains Savage and Rakghoul Disease and immediately returns to play with 10 Hit Points as part of this character's squad) -Empathy (Perhaps even a new Greater Empathy with a range of 12 squares)
FP: Force 2, Renewal 1 -Repulse 3 -Force Lightning -Force Bubble
CE: Allied Rak's gain +3/+3?
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 25, 2009 9:48:47 GMT -5
i guess I kinda like this new Talisman, but the other one was so much more fun with a roll of + Force Alter + MOTF 2. Are we now getting rid of all of that? The only thing I really dont like is the fact on this Talisman is that they come back with 10 HP, that doesn't make much sense at all. She didn't use the talisman against people and they came back near death...she used it and they were full rakghouls under her control and could bite, claw, or even shoot a gun.
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Post by gwek on Dec 25, 2009 10:20:07 GMT -5
i guess I kinda like this new Talisman, but the other one was so much more fun with a roll of + Force Alter + MOTF 2. Are we now getting rid of all of that? Is there a way to combine the two? Honestly, I agree with you, but I think there could be a huge game imbalance with her having the ability to "turn" a lot of pieces at the same time and have them keep full capability. I'ver thought about it for a while and I don't see any way to accurately replicate what she does and maintain a semblence of game balance. To me, at this point, it's a matter of what concessions we're going to make. If we can come up with another option, I'm all for it! ***** On Empathy: I don't think she should have it. She affected RAKGHOULS, not savage creatures. I think she should have a CE that affects Raks whether they're savage or not, and that's it. The whole thing with the Talisman is that it was geared to make people subservient to the bearer of the talisman, not to others.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 25, 2009 21:30:00 GMT -5
What a pain she has become, I liked the roll of 1 so much more, what if we drop MOTF and keep alter with the force 1 like betrayal of it.
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Post by xpraider on Dec 25, 2009 22:32:14 GMT -5
Nah. I'd rather it be something closer to what she actually did.
One way of doing her CE if we don't want to give her Empathy is this:
Commander Effect: Savage characters are subject to this effect. Characters with Rakghoul Plague lose savage and gain +3atk and +3 defense.
The only other thing I'd like to see included is the ability for the Talisman to seek out a new host, so I'm going to borrow the rule for the Thrall of Blackrazor for DDM.
Here's a a redo of Roguesaber's version with this included:
Celeste Morne Cost: 45-55? HP: 130 Def: 20 Att: 14 Dmg: 20
SA: Unique, Melee Attack -Double Attack -Muur Talisman (Whenever this character defeats a living character without Force rating, the defeated character gains Savage and Rakghoul Disease and immediately returns to play with 10 Hit Points as part of this character's squad)
A New Host (If this character is defeated by an adjacent enemy with a Force Rating save 11; on a Failure that enemy immediately joins your squad and gains Muur Talisman, A New Host and this character's Commander Effect).
FP: Force 2, Renewal 1 -Repulse 3 -Force Lightning -Force Bubble
CE: Savage characters are subject to this effect. Characters with Rakghoul Plague lose savage and gain +3atk and +3 defense.
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Post by gwek on Dec 25, 2009 23:48:29 GMT -5
Now, see, I don't think that Raks under her control should lose Savage. Denying Raks other commander effects is EXACTLY what the Talisman is about. If anything, her commander effect should negate the "must end next to an enemy" part (maybe within 6 squares?), but shouldn't negate Savage entirely. I didn't see those Raks exactly following anyone else's orders.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 26, 2009 20:55:11 GMT -5
Yeah the raks could only follow her orders and no one elses, I would say they are savage to the purpose of movement only but are subject only to Celeste Morne's CE
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Post by xpraider on Dec 27, 2009 1:33:49 GMT -5
Well to be honest the Talisman allowed her control of the Rakghouls, which would be represented by the player able to control her and them. We never really saw if they were influenced by others. The other thing to realize is that we may not get it exactly the way we would like it, and there are a number of abilities which come close to the mark, but still don't completely represent something. Such as the Varactyl Wrangler, who has empathy, but they were really animal trainers and having them cause Raks to lose Savage doesn't make much sense, but there it is.
Or the new Chewbacca with the gas mask ability, which makes him immune to abilities or Force Powers which contain the name Poison. How does a gas mask protect against a poison dart or blade.
If it helps to make a bit more sense, you can think of it as the other CEs affecting the Raks through Celeste. i.e. they gain said ability or affect because Celeste allows them to in the way she is controlling them.
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Post by gwek on Dec 27, 2009 10:05:33 GMT -5
That explanation doesn't really help me, sorry. I think the decision for Empathy or not should wait until we figure out more of the core character, but I have a feeling that Celeste and her magical Rak-making abilities are going to be powerful enough that limiting commander effects in her squad might be a game-balancing necessity. I think we need to figure out (and agree on, at least tentatively) the Muur Talisman first.
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Post by xpraider on Dec 28, 2009 4:41:32 GMT -5
That explanation doesn't really help me, sorry. I think the decision for Empathy or not should wait until we figure out more of the core character, but I have a feeling that Celeste and her magical Rak-making abilities are going to be powerful enough that limiting commander effects in her squad might be a game-balancing necessity. I think we need to figure out (and agree on, at least tentatively) the Muur Talisman first. I'm fine with waiting on that and dealing with the rest of her first, but I would like to point out that doing her CE such that it it doesn't get rid of Savage, but still removes the effect of Savage may be a bit more wordy and intricate than it would be worth to just get rid of Savage. When she controls the Raks, they aren't Savage, but are completely dominated by her. It may not satisfy your idea of how it works, but it may not be possible to fully satisfy everyone on this either. Not to say we shouldn't try to, but just realize it may not happen.
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Post by xpraider on Dec 28, 2009 4:42:48 GMT -5
As for the Muur Talisman, I'm fine with the way you made it. The only thing I would like to see included in her stats as well is the ability for the Talisman to take over someone else.
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 28, 2009 10:13:26 GMT -5
When she controls the Raks, they aren't Savage, but are completely dominated by her. It may not satisfy your idea of how it works, but it may not be possible to fully satisfy everyone on this either. Not to say we shouldn't try to, but just realize it may not happen. Perhaps then, as an addition to the Muur Talisman, "Allied Rakghouls are considered not Savage for purposes of this character's commander effect"
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Post by gwek on Dec 28, 2009 10:20:53 GMT -5
I'm fine with waiting on that and dealing with the rest of her first, but I would like to point out that doing her CE such that it it doesn't get rid of Savage, but still removes the effect of Savage may be a bit more wordy and intricate than it would be worth to just get rid of Savage. Not really wordier than the Sep commander effects that impact Droids: "Rakghouls [or Allies with Rakghoul Disease] are subject to this effect:" Personally, I DON'T think (at this point) that any part of Savage should be negated (for game balance purposes). But I'm saying that without actual stats in front of me.
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Post by xpraider on Dec 28, 2009 13:32:20 GMT -5
The only problem with that is that it was quite clear that the Raks under her control were not acting like savages. If game balance is the big issue we could always modify the effect so that she creates actual Raks instead of just giving non-Raks Savage and the Plague.
Muur Talisman (Whenever this character defeats a living character without Force rating, save 11. On a failure you can immediately add a character named Rakghoul to your squad. The new character sets up in a square that enemy formerly occupied.)
Now while the Raks will be full HPs, there is a save involved to stop them from changing and to just be killed, and pretty much borrows from the actual Rakghoul disease. The other thing this does is stop her from gaining undue CEs or abilties for her squad from taking down say Riekan, Dodonna, General Wedge, Whorm Loathsome, San Hill, Thrawn, etc and then just healing them.
For balance purposes I don't know if it's a good idea to just allow those characters to switch squads, even with just 10 HP. And clearly the Raks under her command were not really savage.
If giving them access to allied CEs is an issue, we could always change it so that part of her CE says that Allies who's name contain Rakghoul are not subject to other ally Commander Effects.
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