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Post by Dendrite on Dec 20, 2009 12:28:14 GMT -5
We could just tack on "Allies with Rakghoul Disease are subject to commander effects while this character is in play" to the Muur Talisman wording.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 20, 2009 16:16:33 GMT -5
The droid thing definitely needs to be added, probably in an expanded definition. I'm sort of scared of how powerful this piece can potentially be. If we keep it as is, her cost really does need to go up. Like, a lot. Why? It's only a little bit scarier than Betrayal which, while psychologically hindering, doesn't come up that often. All this does is also give the affectees Rak disease. Also, the existing definition does explicitly state that droids are not affected when it says "a non-unique living enemy..." Droids are not living and would obviously not be affected.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 21, 2009 0:43:57 GMT -5
indeed, betrayal has never been that scary and I have only seen it work just a few times, so even with Force Alter I dont see this happening that much, I see very little need for her cost to be super super high.
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Post by gwek on Dec 22, 2009 13:57:15 GMT -5
Bump.
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Post by xpraider on Dec 23, 2009 20:25:07 GMT -5
Savage needs to stay on them, and she needs to have empathy. Once out of her control the Raks would act like regular raks again.
That being said, the whole issue with the Talisman in the storyline and why she needed to act as a prison to Muur was because of how effective it was. It turned practically an entire army of Mandalorians into Rakghouls in an instant, and later an entire Star Destroyer full of Imperial Troops into Raks. It should be a powerful ability.
Beyond that Celeste seemed like a fairly basic jedi (though a bit more stealthy), but gained a truly powerful artifact. I don't think MoTF 2 would be appropriate (and to be honest I don't want to see too many OR jedi getting it especially with Vodo), though I think alter makes sense.
For a basic Celeste before she gets the talisman:
Celeste Morne Cost: n/a HP: 80 Def: 18 Atk: 10 Dam: 20 Special Abilities: Unique, Melee, Double Attack
Force Powers: Force 4 Force Cloak Force Alter
Now for the Talisman
Celeste Morne Cost (to be determined) HP: 80 Def: 18 Atk: 10 Dam: 20 Special Abilities: Unique, Melee Attack, Double Attack, Empathy, Muur Talisman (When this character is defeating, target nearest character with a Force Rating within 6 square save 11; on a failure they join this character's squad and gain Empathy, Muur Talisman and Rakghoul Plague), Rakghoul Plague (Once per Game, Replaces Turn; all living characters within 6 squares without a Force Rating save 6; on failure they gain Rakghoul disease (This character gains Savage and Rakghoul Plague) and join this character's squad).
Force Powers: Force 4 Force Cloak Force Alter
I realize this isn't the way you guys were talking about doing the talisman, but I'd like to explore it a bit and see if there is a way of representing her turning multiple opponents at once. I think an easier save may make it a bit better, and not making her quite that strong as a fighter may also help.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 23, 2009 21:19:58 GMT -5
Your definition of talisman effects force users and it is for non force rating characters that are living. We have shortened the wording so it fits and it seems to work thus far. I just can't back your weak version of Celeste.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 23, 2009 22:18:07 GMT -5
That seems like what we were trying to avoid. Complicated and really powerful. With the simple CE we had before, it showed to flavor of the piece without having to build around a potentially game-changing ability.
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 23, 2009 22:23:02 GMT -5
This is the part I'm not so sure about. So far, nothing in all of SWM has been labelled 'once per game' and I don't think it's a good idea to go that route given that fact.
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Post by xpraider on Dec 23, 2009 22:33:31 GMT -5
Okay, I was just giving it a try.
As for it affecting Force users. It did. When the person wearing the Talisman was killed (or when the Talisman found a more suitable host) it would attach itself to a Force user and try to take control of them.
I would like to see if we can include that aspect of it in her rules as well. Though I can live with the other changes if we need to.
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Post by gwek on Dec 23, 2009 23:17:43 GMT -5
Okay, since we're trying different ideas (I fully expect this one to be shot down rather quickly, but maybe it will spark another, better idea)...
First, let me say that the problem with Celeste Morne is that, once she has the Muur Talisman, she's so powerful that she can't be properly statted. She's basically a writing device.
I think it's almost impossible to have both game balance and flavor, and many of our approaches have come from the flavor side ("How can we make a piece that plays like Celeste Morne functions in the comics?"). I'm going to approach things from the other side (I hope), and try to start with playable first ("How can we make a balanced pieces that sort of approximates some of what Celeste can do in the comics?")
I won't bothering statting her fully, but I imagine she's have decent stats, probably Double Attack, Force Cloak, Force 2, Force Renewal, likely Force Alter.
Then...
Muur Talisman (Whenever this character defeats a living character without Force rating, the defeated character gains Savage and Rakghoul Disease and immediately returns to play with 10 Hit Points as part of this character's squad.
So, whenever she defeats an opponent (regardless of how she defeated them), they become a Rakghoul of sorts under her command. While this could lead to a bunch of diverse pieces, they are limited by Savage and the fact that they only have 10 HP (game balance).
Now, here's the trick: In addition to the above, we give her Force Repulse 3. Costs 3 Force and a full turn to use, but if she's positioned right, she can do 30 damage to bunch of characters, and all those characters, if defeated, come back as "semi-Raks" under her command (albeit, withb only HP).
Thus, she has an option to turn a large number of opponents into "Raks" all at once, but won't be able to pull it off on a regular basis. And even those who aren't defeated take damage, making her effective in overall combat.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 23, 2009 23:51:12 GMT -5
Hmm. Interesting idea. It sure works really well, but does it reflect her character? I'm not saying we have to go for character first, as you said, but if we could keep it there, the better.
Your Talisman seems kind of like a "zombifier". You kill someone and bring them back to life under your control (though gameplay wise, its an effective way of dealing with it)
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 23, 2009 23:53:16 GMT -5
A very interesting way of doing it. Looks functional.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 24, 2009 0:06:19 GMT -5
So we now have two very different approaches to the Talisman. One is very similar to Betrayal: doesn't activate often, but is unanticpated and potentially deadly when it does. The second activates much more often and functions as a sort of "ressurector" ability.
Which would work better for her? (the rest of the stats and cost will probably fill out once we know which version we will use, since they are obviously very different power-wise)
Muur Talisman (Whenever a non-unique living enemy without a force ratings rolls an attack roll of 1 against this character, the attacking enemy joins this character's squad for the rest of the skirmish and gains Rakghoul Disease and Savage) -------------------------------------- Muur Talisman (Whenever this character defeats a living character without Force rating, the defeated character gains Savage and Rakghoul Disease and immediately returns to play with 10 Hit Points as part of this character's squad)
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 24, 2009 10:44:07 GMT -5
I going to have to go with the sacond one.
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Post by xpraider on Dec 24, 2009 14:21:06 GMT -5
very clever GWEK. I like it.
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