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Vergere
Jan 5, 2010 22:39:58 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Jan 5, 2010 22:39:58 GMT -5
I thought we had voted out vongsense awhile ago as well.
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Vergere
Jan 5, 2010 23:12:06 GMT -5
Post by generalgrevious on Jan 5, 2010 23:12:06 GMT -5
For her Dark Master Version also remember about Obi Wan Kenobi, Jedi General
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Vergere
Jan 5, 2010 23:15:01 GMT -5
Post by xpraider on Jan 5, 2010 23:15:01 GMT -5
I thought we had voted out vongsense awhile ago as well. Not really. We only had 2 people respond to the question of whether we want her to have Both Vongsense and have it as a CE. I think as a CE would be okay, but I'm fine with not having it as an ability for her.
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Post by gwek on Jan 6, 2010 1:19:47 GMT -5
Well, there's one obvious think you could do to help, which is reduce Renewal to 1. It might even fit better, was Vergere that strong of a Force user to be on par with Yoda and GMLS? That reduces the potential problem, but I think it's still an issue that needs to be examined in detail if we're going to do it. The problem with giving a battery to a battery is that they can share the wealth in unexpected ways. Again, using Palps as an example.... Assuming we go with Vergere as Dark Master, we're creating her with the intent that she can share her FP with ONE character. If that character is Palpatine, he can they share his FPs with EVERY character in the squad. Same thing applies (albeit with the limitation of only those with Force ratings) to Yoda of Dagobah. Although it's ultimately pretty costly (probably about 70 for both characters), the option of "recharging" Force batteries concerns me enough that I'd like to see it discussed before we agree to anything. I think we also should consider the interaction with Force Spirit and the 2 Jedi spirit pieces. VAU is only ONE example, and I chose him primarily because he fits two different critieria that I thought might be problematic (recharging batteries and Unleashed powers). Honestly, though, the fact that VAU can be easily eliminated by certain types of characters doesn't make VAU himself any potentially less abusive. I don't think we're looking to emulate GOWK here, where people are forced to consider "Vergere Hate Squads," are we?
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Vergere
Jan 6, 2010 14:58:37 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Jan 6, 2010 14:58:37 GMT -5
Vergere is merely giving out more force, not additional uses of Force. That was the main problem with GOWK, MotF with Mettle and SSM. GOWK's problem was much more than just his force though, as I'm sure you know.
Ok, one extra FP per round...still doesn't seem so dramatic as you are making it out to be.
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Vergere
Jan 6, 2010 15:56:37 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Jan 6, 2010 15:56:37 GMT -5
Although she's not doing it directly, I disagree that she's not giving out more uses of Force powers.
Consider (again) VAU, and assume Vergere has Force 2, FR2. After 10 activations, VAU will have accumulated a total of 12 FP, meaning he can use Force Lightning 4 no more than 3 times in 10 rounds.
Vergere will accumulate 22 FP in the same time period, meaning that VAU now has access to 34 FP (almost triple) and can use Force Lightning 4 up to EIGHT times in 10 rounds. That is 5 extra uses. Even at FR1, she allows VAU to use FL4 up to six times.
Similarly, a defensive character (for example, Jarael) can reroll against significantly more different attackers than she would be able to without a Force battery. An ability like Force Alter also becomes dramatically more useful in that it can be used on a much more regular basis.
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Vergere
Jan 6, 2010 18:53:48 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Jan 6, 2010 18:53:48 GMT -5
I don't think "recharging" Force batteries is necessarily a bad thing, if we give her Force Renewal 1 (which is the ONLY way a Fringe force battery, even for one character, will work, IMO). Vergere is going to cost at least 30 points or more, and spending an extra 30+ points to increase the power of a Force battery, while interesting and definitely worth trying, isn't very economical, IMO. That would be nearly one half of your squad in a 150-point match, or one third at 200 points. Just using the Force battery and having 30+ points of supporting characters, rather than a slightly improved Force battery, seems like a better option to me.
That said, I DO NOT support makign Vergere a Fringe Dark Master, unless two things are done:
1. We drop Force Renewal 2 in favour of Force Renewal 1. 2. We look at the most potentially abusive combinations, including with things such as Light Tutor, Force Spirits, HoloSid, Force batteries, Light Spirits, etc.
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Vergere
Jan 6, 2010 21:40:06 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Jan 6, 2010 21:40:06 GMT -5
I agree.
So do we want to go that direction? And if so, who wants to start throwing out possible abuses for discussion?
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Vergere
Jan 6, 2010 23:20:27 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Jan 6, 2010 23:20:27 GMT -5
Im ok with renewal 1 as long as she keeps MOTF 2. Even with the worse possible combo for abuse for squads, it would take well over 100+ points for it to even work, hardly seems worth it at all. GMLS+Leia Skywalker+Vergere, probably close to 200 right there.
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Post by Roque Saber on Jan 7, 2010 0:38:58 GMT -5
Which I assumed to be a necessary change.
As previously stated, the worst abusive combos take a good chunk of points, so even if it made a character or two really powerful, it wouldn't be game breaking.
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Vergere
Jan 14, 2010 21:23:57 GMT -5
Post by Dendrite on Jan 14, 2010 21:23:57 GMT -5
May not fit her character, but perhaps keeping the battery idea, but instead of renewal, add Steal Force?
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Vergere
Jan 14, 2010 21:29:19 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Jan 14, 2010 21:29:19 GMT -5
Nah, I don't think that fits her character. Either way, she would have to be an absolute tank in order for that to be useful, Steal Force leaves you very vulnerable to counter-attack.
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Vergere
Jan 24, 2010 22:49:20 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Jan 24, 2010 22:49:20 GMT -5
I agree that Steal Force would be interesting, but very difficult to use with a piece like Vergere.
Can we see some updated stats, with Force Renewal 1 instead of 2?
I've been thinking about some potentially abusive combos, and the most powerful I came up with were characters with SSM, but I think Vergere costs enough that it's not broken.
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Vergere
Jan 25, 2010 12:46:13 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Jan 25, 2010 12:46:13 GMT -5
Vergere Cost: Faction: Fringe Hit Points: 100 Defense: 19 Attack: 0 Damage: 0 Unique Betrayal (On an attack roll of natural 1 against this character, the attacker joins this character's squad until the end of the skirmish) Dark Master (At the start of the skirmish, choose a Unique allied character. That character may spend Vergere’s Force points as if they were its own.) Rapport (Costs 1 less in a Sith or Yuuzhan Vong squad) Force 2(3), Force Renewal 1 Force Alter (Force 1: range 6; any 1 enemy rerolls its last attack) Force Stun (Force 1, usable only on this character's turn: range 6; target living enemy is considered activated this round; save 11) Force Cloak (Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Cloaked) Force Heal 30 (Force 2, replaces attacks: touch; remove 30 damage from a living character) Master of the Force 2 (May spend Force points up to 2 times in a single turn) Commander Effect: At the end of this character's turn, choose 1 wounded Unique ally with a Force rating within 6 squares. That ally gets +4 Attack and +10 Damage until the end of this character's next turn, or until this character is defeated. The biggest problem is the CE. That can get really nasty with some pieces. Maybe a +3/+3 instead of also buffing the damage?
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Vergere
Jan 25, 2010 12:58:36 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Jan 25, 2010 12:58:36 GMT -5
I don't think the CE is a huge problem, but maybe just an attack boost instead of a damage boost would be better. I don't think a defense boost would make a lot of sense, considering the conditions make it a kind of "Rage".
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