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Vergere
Dec 18, 2009 1:38:34 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 1:38:34 GMT -5
I aslo vote no.
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Vergere
Dec 18, 2009 15:06:18 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 15:06:18 GMT -5
I've been thinking a bit about Vergere and the fact that she's a Fringe Force battery. I wonder if that might be a bit problematic.
She's already a fairly unconventional character, so I'd like to suggest an addition to her (either a second commander effect or another special ability:
The character subject to Vergere's Dark Master gains Internal Strife.
Thus, it is a huge benefit to have her as a Force battery, but this is balanced somewhat by the risk of Internal Strife (which is, in turn, somewhat mitigated by the fact that the character could then spend a Force point--Vergere's Force point!--to re-roll).
Another interesting element is that the character could switch teams due to Internal Strife, and then be brought back in via Vergere's Betrayal.
Although it's a little odd, I think it might reflect the "Exactly who the heck is she siding with?!?" nature of Vergere, while also balancing the incredibly powerful idea of a Fringe Force battery.
Thoughts?
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Vergere
Dec 18, 2009 18:12:13 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 18, 2009 18:12:13 GMT -5
Hmm Id like to see this playtested, but seems quite intriguing.
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Vergere
Dec 22, 2009 13:55:55 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 22, 2009 13:55:55 GMT -5
Bump.
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Vergere
Jan 4, 2010 14:36:29 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Jan 4, 2010 14:36:29 GMT -5
Bump.
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Vergere
Jan 4, 2010 22:23:04 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Jan 4, 2010 22:23:04 GMT -5
HP seems a tad high for Vergere, she didn't seem very imposing (that's a minor point, though).
True, she's essentially a force battery, but only for one unit. What's the nastiest combo that can be made? VAR? Cade? Kota? Most of the big nasty pieces already have access to a force battery, so it doesn't seem all that horrible (and prevents us from needing to make a new ability).
The CE seems a little potent. Imagine Bane with a +4/+10 or, good heavens, GMLS. Would a +4 or +10 alone be enough? Or what if she gave out Sith Rage?
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Post by darthgrievous on Jan 5, 2010 9:40:24 GMT -5
Wow I like him a lot, what a battery indeed
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Vergere
Jan 5, 2010 10:19:20 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Jan 5, 2010 10:19:20 GMT -5
Assuming she has Force Renewal 2, I think the biggest dangers are the characters with "Unleashed" abilities (I'm thinking of her paired with either version of Vader's Apprentice) and characters who are designed with a limited number of FPs in mind (Kyp Durron, for example).
Characters with MotF (especially those who have it paired with FR1) also become potentially more dangerous, because they're no longer "balanced" by the fact that they can't accumulate FP quickly enough to use MotF every round.
Not saying we shouldn't do it, but we should definitely explore some of the worst combinations to see if she's broken.
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Vergere
Jan 5, 2010 11:41:02 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Jan 5, 2010 11:41:02 GMT -5
My point exactly. Most of the nasty pieces with Unleashed force powers already have big batteries in Palps on Throne and Yoda of Dagobah. I don't think it's much of a stretch to have it on Vergere.
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Vergere
Jan 5, 2010 11:55:38 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Jan 5, 2010 11:55:38 GMT -5
But those pieces now have TWO batteries.
Come to that, Yoda and Palpatine now have batteries of their own!
Consider, for example, the combo of VAU, Throne Palp, and Vergere. They're regenerating a total of 6 FP per turn, which means than VAU can use his lightning attacks essentially at will, every turn, and there's still a point or 2 left over for other characters to do stuff with.
It is, potentially, a HUGE boost to the factions that already have a Force battery.
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Vergere
Jan 5, 2010 12:10:03 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Jan 5, 2010 12:10:03 GMT -5
So what is your suggestion to solve this then? Drop the CE entirely...change her faction to Sith/Vong?
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Vergere
Jan 5, 2010 12:22:02 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Jan 5, 2010 12:22:02 GMT -5
Is that question addressed to me or RS?
Personally, I think making her Vong is not appropriate (mechnically speaking), and I'm not sold on her being Sith. Since her allegiences were so shifting, Fringe seems like the best call.
I don't necessarily have a problem with the commander effect, although perhaps it would be better re-phrased to give a bonus only against adjacent targets. (Honestly, melee Force-users are the ones who could use the biggest boost; they are almost categorically overpriced compared to the effectiveness of shooters).
With respect to the Dark Master/Battery nature of things... I don't know. I had suggested Internal Strife as a possible balance, but I think there are a few potential failings:
1) That doesn't necessarily reflect the way Vergere worked.
2) It's mechanically complicated.
3) It doesn't directly address the problem. The character using Force points can, quite easily, NEVER MAKE AN ATTACK (and therefore never be subject to Internal Strife). Even if they are an attacking character, it's possible to make a "chain" (for example, VAU uses Palp's FPs, and Palp--who never needs to make an attack--uses Vergere's and gains Internal Strife).
Too many loopholes...
Although I really like the idea of her as a Fringe Force battery, I think it might be a broken idea.
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Vergere
Jan 5, 2010 15:56:01 GMT -5
Post by fardreamer on Jan 5, 2010 15:56:01 GMT -5
What if it were more limited? Like Force Spirit? I know there is a reluctance to create new abilities, and I totally understand that, but I think a key element of Vergere as a character is that she helped Jacen gain his 'Vongsense'. Maybe her CE could enable followers within 6 to ignore Force Immunity. Now, I know that's quite situational, but I think it's worth considoring. Vergere is probably the hardest character on this list to nail down into a workable mini. Everyone who read those books has a different take on the character. We have to be very careful not to make her too dark, because lots of people don't accept Lumiya's version of Vergere. The idea of a kind of twisted Yoda appeals to me. But I think Gwek is right when he suggests a Force battery like Dark Master is probably broken in the Fringe faction. So, I'm going to take a shot at a different angle on Vergere, and I'll be honest, my ideas are far from fully formed. Something like this: VergereCost: HP: 70 Def: 18 Att: 0 Dam: 0 Special Abilities Unique Affinity (Costs 1 less when in the same squad as a character whose name includes Jacen Solo) Betrayal Cloaked Light Tutor Vongsense (This character ignore Force Immunity) Force 2, Renewal 1 Force Alter Force Defence Force Heal 30 Force Sever Force Spirit 6
Commander Effect Followers within 6 squares ignore Force Immunity. I know she needs quite a bit of work, but that's my take on her. I know some people want to avoid Light Tutor, but the ability only grants 1 force point, and is lots less abusive than Dark Master. She could be fun paired with Kyp for instance. Just my 2 cents.
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Vergere
Jan 5, 2010 18:59:38 GMT -5
Post by Dendrite on Jan 5, 2010 18:59:38 GMT -5
A CE idea regarding the force battery issue:
Allies/Followers with a force rating that are adjacent to an enemy may use this characters force points
or
Allies/followers with a force rating may use this character's force points to reroll or move faster
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Vergere
Jan 5, 2010 19:05:55 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Jan 5, 2010 19:05:55 GMT -5
Well, there's one obvious think you could do to help, which is reduce Renewal to 1. It might even fit better, was Vergere that strong of a Force user to be on par with Yoda and GMLS?
And what's the big deal of giving the batteries and battery, it doesn't help them a whole lot. Palps usually has more force than he can waste, so more force for him would be a waste, similar case with Yoda. I see your concern, but the pieces that are being boosted are still very vulnerable in other ways.
e.g. VAU was your main example: he can be taken out very quickly in today's game so using Lightning every turn isn't that big of a deal. Lightning 4 is nasty, and Lightning 5 wastes his turn. Cad Bane with Yularen can nearly kill VAU in one round.
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