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Vergere
Dec 14, 2009 0:55:05 GMT -5
Post by xpraider on Dec 14, 2009 0:55:05 GMT -5
Ok. So this is probably going to be one of the more complicated characters for us to make, and I'll be honest in saying that I don't have any solid build to go on so far beyond a few ideas.
I do have some basic ideas to go on though. The first is what faction she belongs in. Going by her history she has reason to be in the Republic, Yuuzhan Vong, Sith, and New Republic factions. Sith and YV are probably the two strongest ones considering her Sith History and the amount of time she spent with the YV. If that's the case then I think she should have some sort of affinity with Jacen Solo.
There could also be case for just making her fringe considering how she never seemed to be completely tied to any particular group.
As far as the basics for her stats go. I don't recall seeing any instance in which she used a lightsaber, and in most of her appearances she had already abandoned it. So I think she should be something similar to Yoda of Dagobah and Darth Sidious. I also think something like a mix of their abilities and powers might also be appropriate and show her nature as a character.
So for now I'll start with a very basic and broad view of her and we can debate some of her abilities and such down the line.
Verege Cost: 35 Faction: Fringe HP: 100 Defense: 19 Atk: 0 Dam: 0
Special Abilities: Unique, Melee Attack, Light Tutor, Dark Master, Betrayal
Force 2, Force Renewal 1 Pawn of the Dark Side Force Stun Force Cloak Force Heal 20 Vongsense (Force 1, replace turn: For the remainder of the skirmish this character may use Force Powers against figures with Force Immunity). Commander Effect: At the beginning of skirmish choose one allied character. For the rest of the skirmish that character gains the Vongsense Force Power.
Not perfect, but I'm trying to see if I can capture some of her more basic aspects.
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Vergere
Dec 14, 2009 8:54:06 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 14, 2009 8:54:06 GMT -5
I really like Vongsense a lot, I was trying to think how much Vergere had to do with the Embrace of Pain as well. I don't remember ever seeing Vergere fight, the only other Force Power I was thinking about was maybe Force Alter, but I dont know.
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Vergere
Dec 14, 2009 10:15:01 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 14, 2009 10:15:01 GMT -5
I think this is a good start (although she may need to be trimmed down... that's a lot of stuff!).
She basically looks like a twisted version of Yoda of Dagobah... which is pretty much exactly right, I think.
Force Alter is a possibility. She could also (theoretically) have Force Cloak (her "art of the small") or Force Heal (her tears).
In terms of faction, I think Fringe is the way to do, although we might want to consider something like "Rapport (Sith, Vuuzhan Vong") where she costs slightly less for those factions.
Could the Embrace of Pain angle be represented by something similar to Scarification? Where a wounded ally with a Force rating gains a bonus to attack and/or damage?
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Vergere
Dec 14, 2009 13:40:18 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 14, 2009 13:40:18 GMT -5
Wow, gwek. Did you just approve Fringe Pawn of the Dark Side? Lol.
Seriously, I don't think she should be Fringe if she keeps that ability. It would be the PERFECT thing for the YV. If we want her to have PotDS, I think she should belong to the Yuuzhan Vong with Affinity for the Sith (since they already have PotDS).
The CE is somewhat odd, even useless at times, though. Other than that (and deciding which faction to put her in), she looks very good.
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Vergere
Dec 14, 2009 14:17:52 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 14, 2009 14:17:52 GMT -5
Hey, now, I didn't necessarily agree to anything, just that she was a good start! With respect to faction, although YV seems a good choice on the surface, I'm not sold on it for multiple reasons. First, although she spent a lot of time with the Vong, it seems like they were never her true allegience. She jumps ship when she gets a legitimate chance to do so, and spends a lot of time trying to stop them. From a gameplay standpoint, that would make her eligible for a number of commander effects and special abilities that she shouldn't really benefit from. It's really one of the same gameplay reasons that the Peace Brigade are Fringe.
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Vergere
Dec 14, 2009 14:23:35 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 14, 2009 14:23:35 GMT -5
Okay, that's fine, but that means we'll have to scrap Pawn of the Dark Side. I can't see anyway working it onto a Fringe character.
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Vergere
Dec 14, 2009 14:32:09 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 14, 2009 14:32:09 GMT -5
I'm okay with that. Now that you bring the topic up, it should probably remain exclusively with Sidious.
I'm curious, though, is your issue with PttDS-for-Fringe an alignment thing (eg, it should only be on "dark side" pieces), or a gameplay thing (eg, not all factions should have access to it)?
If the former, there are at least 3 Fringe pieces with exclusively "dark side" powers.
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Vergere
Dec 14, 2009 14:38:03 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 14, 2009 14:38:03 GMT -5
Nah, it's not an alignment thing, it's just game balance. It's good for the Sith and Seps, and would be perfect for the Vong, but I think it should end there. While there are no immediate combos that come to mind (other than using it on Imperial Sentinels or pawning a Bo'Marr Monk so it uses Dominate twice per round on GMLS), it overwhelms me just thinking about it on a Fringe piece.
Without PotDS, I think she needs another hook, like the Embrace of Pain thing you guys suggested earlier. I'm no expert on anything SW after the Battle of Endor, so I'm not much help other than with the basics here.
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Vergere
Dec 14, 2009 14:56:07 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 14, 2009 14:56:07 GMT -5
I think I agree overall.
Taking a look at her abilities a little more closely:
If she has a 0 attack/0 damage, Melee Attck can come out.
On closer inspection, I don't think Light Tutor is appropriate (since it's more about sort of "fanning the flames' on an apprentice, whereas she spins those who are already experienced).
Dark Master and Betrayal seem well suited to her demeanor (although we may want to consider the ramifications of Dark Master on a Fringe piece, since it basically gives ANY single character in the game Force Renewal).
Consequently, we may want to consider limiting Vergere's Force points.
As discussed, should go away.
Both seem legit and we can consider adding Force Alter.
I almost want this to be higher (and more expensive), but I'm not sure.
It's an interesting power, but did Vergere really demonstrate this? Wasn't that more Anakin Solo's thing? (It's been a while since I've read the books, so I could be wrong).
As has been pointed out elsewhere, WotC has yet to create a commander effect that gives out a Force power. I don't know that we want to break that tradition.
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Vergere
Dec 14, 2009 18:38:14 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 14, 2009 18:38:14 GMT -5
I agree with gwek, on all accounts. Although the Vongsense power in itself is very good, I don't think it's worth having it as a CE. Whether or not it fits Vergere, I don't know. But a CE along the lines of Sacrification, like previously mentioned, could be interesting:
Wounded non-Unique followers with a Force rating within 6 squares get +4 attack and +10 damage.
Or something similar.
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Vergere
Dec 14, 2009 20:17:19 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 14, 2009 20:17:19 GMT -5
What about limiting her to only certain factions but keeping her fringe? Is that even possible? We knew that she was going to be complicated from the start. I am still thinking Force Alter. I still like my Embrace of Pain, just not sure how to put it in yet. What about giving her Force 5 total, but giving her 4 force powers so she can't use them all and when she isn't fighting vong she wont use vongsense anyway. I was thinking Force Heal 20, Force Alter, Force Cloak, and Vongsense. Thoughts?
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Vergere
Dec 14, 2009 22:50:03 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 14, 2009 22:50:03 GMT -5
But did she actually have/use Vongsense?
Wookieepedia (admittedly, a dubious and often-incomplete source) lists only three practitioners, and she ain't one of them.
I honestly don't remember her ever using it.
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Vergere
Dec 15, 2009 8:38:22 GMT -5
Post by generalgrevious on Dec 15, 2009 8:38:22 GMT -5
I'm with Gwek there, I haven't seen anywhere where she has used Vongsence. But, if we are making her with no attack abilities we must give her Force Renewal.
So it looks that were looking at something like
Verege Cost: 38 Faction: Fringe HP: 100 Defense: 19 Atk: 0 Dam: 0
Special Abilities: Unique, Melee Attack, Light Tutor, Dark Master, Betrayal
Force 2, Force Renewal 1 Pawn of the Dark Side Force Stun Force Cloak Force Alter Force Heal 30
Commander Effect: Wounded non-Unique followers with a Force rating within 6 squares get +4 attack and +10 damage.
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Vergere
Dec 15, 2009 8:58:45 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 15, 2009 8:58:45 GMT -5
Yea she looks good, just wish her force would work against those pesky Vong. I am worried about her being on teams of OR, Rebels, Mando, and Imperials since she really has no place on those teams. But then again this might not change things that much. Looks good to me.
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Vergere
Dec 15, 2009 10:53:49 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 15, 2009 10:53:49 GMT -5
I made a few adjustments based on previous discussion (and on the fly). I think she shapes up to be a strange mix of Sidious and Yoda of Dagobah... which seems exactly appropriate. Thoughts? VergereCost: Faction: Fringe Hit Points: 100 Defense: 19 Attack: 0 Damage: 0 Unique Betrayal (On an attack roll of natural 1 against this character, the attacker joins this character's squad until the end of the skirmish) Dark Master (At the start of the skirmish, choose a Unique allied character. That character may spend Vergere’s Force points as if they were its own.) Rapport (Costs 1 less in a Sith or Yuuzhan Vong squad) Force 2, Force Renewal 2 Force Alter (Force 1: range 6; any 1 enemy rerolls its last attack) Force Stun (Force 1, usable only on this character's turn: range 6; target living enemy is considered activated this round; save 11) Force Cloak (Force 2, replaces turn: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains Cloaked) Force Heal 30 (Force 2, replaces attacks: touch; remove 30 damage from a living character) Master of the Force 2 (May spend Force points up to 2 times in a single turn) Commander Effect: At the end of this character's turn, choose 1 wounded Unique ally with a Force rating within 6 squares. That ally gets +4 Attack and +10 Damage until the end of this character's next turn, or until this character is defeated.
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