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Post by saber1 on Jan 9, 2010 0:49:10 GMT -5
I think Rolling Cleave is a good addition (although I don't remember Saba being quite so excellent a combatant... still, she's a Barabel, so I guess it's a reasonable fudge). I think Surprise Move or Intuition would be overkill. Movement breakers of any sort are really pretty rare, and I don't think there's any piece (espeically a melee piece that has more than one). There are, for example, only 3 melee pieces with GMA, and Saba would be the first "normal" (vs Droid/critter) with Ambush to begin with (a pretty interesting piece even without anything else). There are less than a half dozen pieces each with Intuition and Surprise Move (and not one of those with Intuition is a melee piece). Point is, any one of these abilities is pretty impressive, but two is too much. Additionally, from a flavor point of view, if a character WERE to have two of these abilities, it should probably be a character who moves like lightning... and I don't remember that being Saba. One movement breaker can represent her predatory nature, but I think two busts an accurate (or balanced) representation. I beg to differ. If we drop Rolling Cleave in favor of Cleave (eliminating a movement-based SA) we could still leave Ambush and Surprise Move. They synergize well and the FP cost of Surprise Move coupled with the situational nature of Ambush, I believe, make them a balanced combo. Additionally, this would give the NR a versatile piece that can cover a decent amount of the map. I think this is one thing the faction is lacking considering other factions' pieces (Yobuck, Luke in SS, Luke in LS, Rebel on SB, Scout Trooper on SB, Clone Trooper on SB, Lancer Droid, etc). This would undoubtedly give Saba a very unique feel, making her an excellent choice for multiple NR builds while utilizing only existing WotC approved abilities.
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Post by saber1 on Jan 9, 2010 1:00:35 GMT -5
Rolling Cleave dropped for Cleave, dropped Force Valor (however, if Force Valor is dropped, LS Defense can be swapped for Block as Wedge grants Evade)
Saba Sebatyne COST: 41 HP: 140 DEF: 22 ATK: 14 DAM: 20
Special Abilities Unique, Melee Ambush Double Attack Rend +20 Cleave
Force Powers Force 2, Renewal 1 Force Leap Lightsaber Defense Surprise Move
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Post by darthgrievous on Jan 9, 2010 9:56:01 GMT -5
Now we are down to just two force powers, wasn't she quite adept in quite a few. Where did they all go?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jan 9, 2010 10:31:00 GMT -5
No offense, but you're not really thinking outside of the box. Ain't my job to. As I've said before, I signed on to this project in part for game balance and keeping things accurate to the WotC "feel"... which often means thinking INSIDE that ol' box. I must respectfully disagree, especially with respect to MJJ. Compared to MJJ, Saba is a melee piece vs ranged, with higher base damage and signigicantly higher HP. Unlike MJJ, she can either be a follower (benefitting from some excellent faction commander effects) or a commander herself, offering an effect that the faction doesn't have. While I understand what you're saying about not being eclipsed by MJJ, I really don't think she is, because you'd use the pieces under different circumstances. It's kinda like, in the Old Rep, the new Jedi Watchman is a pretty solid character, but he doesn't "eclipse" Atton Rand, because you'd use the two of them in completely different circumstances. You're correct that this defensive combo is quite good... but using it reduces Shadow's damage output, limiting him to 40 damage (less than Saba). Since Saba's main defensive advantage (high HP) and main offensive abilities (Ambush/Rend) are dedicated special abilities rather than Force-dependent, I'd judge them overall superior (or, at the very least, roughly equal overall). At this point, I'm assuming that we'll likely be upping Rend to +20, which puts them on equal footing for max damage. You're right that GMA is more flexible than Ambush, but maximizing Shado's damage output (based on using Precision twice--which assumes he has 2 FP he can use) is more situational. I understand that you may not personally like KKCI, but personal opinion shouldn't necessarily remove him from the equation. He's a viable squad option, especially because of his commander effect. I've already noted the pieces I think are the best comparisons (including Shado), and I think that Saba, especially with another gimmick like Rolling Cleave added, certainly has enough going for her that she stands out in the pack. Is she a wonderful, aggressively priced piece? No, she's not. But, personally, I don't think the NR needs any more of those right now... Technically speaking, NOT giving her Force Renewal gives her something somewhat unique (if likely rarely used) over many other, similarly priced pieces: she can benefit from GMLS's commander effect. A minor point, but possibly worth mentioning. That's fine if you want to worry strictly about game balance, but I don't want to let any piece - even one in a faction that I almost never play - become obsolete as soon as it "comes out". If we're sticking to the feel of real WotC pieces, perhaps she SHOULD be less effective than MJJ.... Static terms again? MJJ may be a shooter, but she can only get a max of 40 damage in one turn at range, which is bumped up to 120 in melee. This makes her a melee piece with ranged capabilities, without having Melee Attack. Shado may rely on his Force powers, but FR and MotF give him a lot of uses. He can eclipse Saba offensively by staying alive longer, and Shado has greater synergy with Leia Skywalker, Jedi Knight, making him very difficult to kill. Saba is something of a mini Darth Bane, which is probably a good thing, but as we know huge HP only protects you from getting killed in one round, in rounds two and three, FR and more defensive Force powers will usually prevail. I agree with you about personal opinion not affecting decisions, but it IS my opinion (along with a lot of others, I'm sure) that KKCI is pretty useless. I don't want to get too much into it, because that's not what this thread is about, but his CE is useless against Mando squads, Vong squads, a number of Republic O66 squads, almost all Separatist squads, Mobile Push Rebel squads, and almost all Imperial squads (except B&B, where it is somewhat effective). Add to that the fact that his CE kills any and all synergy with his faction, and a pathetic 19 defense, and he becomes a wasted opportunity for a great character. Lol. I think the fact that she has more synergy with Luke FS would be a better point than with GMLS, but both make sense. I agree that she doesn't really need FR, Force 4 or 5 should do the trick. On Force Valor: I really, really think it should be dropped. Despite what you've said, the NR faction DOES have access to Force Valor, through the Fringe Jolee Bindo. Who, btw, also costs about half of what we're going to price Saba, and combining him with Leia Skywalker makes him a pain to kill. I don't see using Saba over Jolee because Force Valor to be a viable option, and the fact that using means she loses Evade, Mobile Attack, possibly Greater Mobile Attack, and 2 Force points really means you'd only use it if you somehow lost all your commanders early, which is extremely unlikely. I think we should drop it in favour of something else, like Repulse 2 or something useful that the 35-55 Unique NR group does not have.
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Post by Roque Saber on Jan 9, 2010 11:23:43 GMT -5
Rolling Cleave dropped for Cleave, dropped Force Valor (however, if Force Valor is dropped, LS Defense can be swapped for Block as Wedge grants Evade) Saba SebatyneCOST: 41 HP: 140 DEF: 22 ATK: 14 DAM: 20 Special AbilitiesUnique, Melee Ambush Double Attack Rend +20 Cleave Force PowersForce 2, Renewal 1 Force Leap Lightsaber Defense Surprise Move Well bummer, I was rather fond of Rolling Cleave. It gave her a nice flair and added flexibility. Why exactly was it taken out? Also, why Surprise Move? She was agile, yes, but I think that could be better represented with something like Master Speed (plus, Zannah already has SM). As she is, she seems (as BH9 said) like a mini Bane. Move, hack at an enemy for a possible 60 damage (and then possibly use Cleave). It this the direction we're trying to take her? Does it fall in line with her character?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jan 9, 2010 13:06:54 GMT -5
Well bummer, I was rather fond of Rolling Cleave. It gave her a nice flair and added flexibility. Why exactly was it taken out? I like it too, but I would be good with either version of Cleave. Also, why Surprise Move? She was agile, yes, but I think that could be better represented with something like Master Speed (plus, Zannah already has SM). Great idea, for some reason I forgot about the speed powers. I think Master or Knight Speed (depening upon how proficient she was with this power) would be an excellent alternative to Surprise Move. As she is, she seems (as BH9 said) like a mini Bane. Move, hack at an enemy for a possible 60 damage (and then possibly use Cleave). It this the direction we're trying to take her? Does it fall in line with her character? I wouldn't know for sure, as I've read only a couple of the later-era novels. What do others think? Is making her a "mini-Bane" accurate to her character?
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Post by saber1 on Jan 9, 2010 14:37:59 GMT -5
Saba was quite adept at stealthy movement and springing on an opponent suddenly. Several of the more powerful Jedi of the era are mentioned in novels as respecting her significant battle prowess. I opted not to give her Stealth as its being given out like candy on Halloween lately. Instead, I thought her ability to move quickly and unabated for a strong strike fit both her personality and her species. Master Speed already had mulitple representations in the faction and felt too bland so I opted for Surprise Move. It just seems to fit her. Besideds, MS/KS are more of a "here I come at you with superspeed" whereas SM is more of a "all-of-a-sudden I'm in your face" and that feels more like the predator Saba is described to be.
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Post by saber1 on Jan 9, 2010 14:44:34 GMT -5
Well bummer, I was rather fond of Rolling Cleave. It gave her a nice flair and added flexibility. Why exactly was it taken out? Also, why Surprise Move? She was agile, yes, but I think that could be better represented with something like Master Speed (plus, Zannah already has SM). As she is, she seems (as BH9 said) like a mini Bane. Move, hack at an enemy for a possible 60 damage (and then possibly use Cleave). It this the direction we're trying to take her? Does it fall in line with her character? I'm all for keeping Rolling Cleave, but I feel Cleave is an acceptible middle ground as she has other "speed" abilites. Neither is currently in the NR so they both give Saba a level of uniqueness. Why can't two characters have the same ability in the same set? Wizards does that often. The quick-strike nature of the stats I made above fit her character and also give her a unique roll in her faction. It also refrains from using cookie-cutter abilities like Push 2 and such. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to give her some ranged punch, but neither she, nor the faction need it.
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Post by Roque Saber on Jan 9, 2010 19:45:41 GMT -5
Ah, just to keep everything looking fresh. Plus, Wizards has twice as many pieces in their sets. If it fits well, she can have it. We juse don't want 4 pieces with the same ability in the set. Saba Sebatyne Cost: 41 Hit Points: 140 Defense: 22 Attack: 14 Damage: 20 Special Abilities Unique, Melee Ambush Double Attack Rend +20 Cleave/Rolling Cleave ? Force Powers Force 2, Renewal 1 Force Leap Lightsaber Defense Surprise Move ? I feel like she could use another force power or SA, or both (or lower the cost)
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Post by gwek on Jan 13, 2010 11:29:15 GMT -5
I haven't looked at the numbers recently, so can't comment on the cost, but if we're going with the Surprise Move/Force Leap/Ambush/Rend combo, I don't think she needs anything else. That's a potent mix that makes her one of the best--if not THE best--Jedi in the game for purposes of movement and damage.
Honestly, with the strong synergy that these abilities have, I think she should be priced in the mid- to high-40s (even if that means upping her stats a little).
If we add anything, add back in Force Valor. Sure, Jolee Bindo has it, but there's no reason she can't also have it.
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Post by Roque Saber on Jan 13, 2010 13:14:35 GMT -5
I see what you're saying. Especially since Surprise Move is activated after init is determined, you can really get an edge on your opponent. You know, she's reminding me a lot of what K'Kruhk should've been like. So mid-high 40s?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jan 13, 2010 16:32:56 GMT -5
I don't think Force Valor is necessary, I don't know if it would fit on the card with the definitions for it, Rolling Cleave/Cleave (need to decide which one btw), Ambush, and everything else. But if we're fine with it, we could probably squeeze it in their, though we would have a pretty cluttered card.
I think high 40s is good. So 46-49?
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Post by saber1 on Jan 13, 2010 18:36:05 GMT -5
As for Cleave/Rolling Cleave, I'm ambivalent about it. Either would be appropriate for the character and fresh for the faction. Some might argue Rolling Cleave is overkill on the movement theme, but others would say that it completes her niche.
As for Force Valor, I'm ambivalent once again. While it would be great to have that ability represented in the NR, thus giving an option other than Jolee, it isn't a deal-breaker. Does it fit the character? Sure. Does it define the character? No.
Saba Sebatyne COST: 41/43(46) HP: 140 DEF: 22 ATK: 14 DAM: 20
Special Abilities Unique, Melee Ambush Double Attack Rend +20 Cleave/Rolling Cleave
Force Powers Force 2, Renewal 1 Force Leap (Force Valor) Lightsaber Defense Surprise Move
Looks like a great piece. 41ish points with Cleave, 43ish with Rolling Cleave or Cleave & Force Valor, 46ish with RC and Force Valor.
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Post by gwek on Jan 13, 2010 21:47:11 GMT -5
I think BH's cost range is more accurate given the synergy of the combos involved.
I'm neutral on Force Valor: I was just saying if we DO give her another Force power, it should be that (rather than, say, Force Push).
I would say Cleave is sufficient for her (she's already super-mobile), but won't object to Rolling Cleave, as long as she's priced appropriately.
I'd say 46 with Cleave, +1 or 2 if we go to Rolling, +1 or 2 if we add Force Valor.
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Post by saber1 on Jan 14, 2010 0:12:01 GMT -5
I think BH's cost range is more accurate given the synergy of the combos involved. I'm neutral on Force Valor: I was just saying if we DO give her another Force power, it should be that (rather than, say, Force Push). Total agreement here.I would say Cleave is sufficient for her (she's already super-mobile), but won't object to Rolling Cleave, as long as she's priced appropriately. I'd say 46 with Cleave, +1 or 2 if we go to Rolling, +1 or 2 if we add Force Valor. Sounds good to me.
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