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Post by gwek on Jan 8, 2010 16:12:06 GMT -5
Honestly, I would consider keeping the HP at 150 (making her the heartiest of the NR Jedi except for Luke), and pricing her in the mid- to high 40s.
Kol is very aggressively-priced, so although he should be considered, I think tht it's worth looking at KKCI, Shado Vao, and MJS, too (these are the Double-attacking Jedi in the price range I'm suggesting).
1) Seba has better overall basic stats than any of them (and, if we keep the HP at 150, better than Kol).
2) Like the others, she has a special ability "gimmick" (in her case Ambush/Rend). I'd judge that as roughly comparable to KKCI's Disruptive/LS Duelist, and MJS's Stealth/Cunning, and better than Shado's GMA or Kol's Duelist.
3) Although her Force abilities are a little limited compared to some of the others in variety, I don't think she looses out too much because of the synergy. Lightsaber Deflect and Force Leap work well with her mobile attack concept, and Force Valor is a good "swing" ability, because she can be either a leader or commander (adding some flexibility to her role in a squad).
If we keep her as indicated below (including the rough price), I would suggest one (or both) of the following):
*Increase Rend+10 to Rend+20
and/or
*Add one more special ability. I could see something like Resilient (as already noted), LS Duelist, or even Mettle (which would be a bit redundant with MJS, but would give her great synergy with Leia Skywalker).
Seba Sebatyne Cost: 47 Hit Points: 150 Defense: 21 Attack: 14 Damage: 20
Unique Melee Attack Double Attack Ambush Rend +10
Force 4 Force Leap Force Valor Lightsaber Deflect
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Post by Roque Saber on Jan 8, 2010 18:42:58 GMT -5
How would Mettle give her great synenergy with Leia? The only time that could be used is if Saba didn't use Valor in order to get Evade from Wedge (and I for one would most likely use Valor quite often).
On top of these existing stats, I agree there should be one more ability. Stable Footing would make for a neat combo with Ambush...
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jan 8, 2010 19:40:52 GMT -5
Personally, I'd rather see the HP and cost go down that give her another damage booster. If she has Ambush, she already has a better-than-average chance of pulling off Double Attack (assuming she acts against an opponent who has not activated). Add Rend to that, and she can do 50 damage on a regular basis, which is significantly more than most Jedi without Triple Attack (who, frankly, are lucky if they can pull off 40 consistently!). As for a movement breaker: I think adding something on top of Ambush (especially Ambush combined with Force Leap) might be excessive. Honestly, I would consider keeping the HP at 150 (making her the heartiest of the NR Jedi except for Luke), and pricing her in the mid- to high 40s. Kol is very aggressively-priced, so although he should be considered, I think tht it's worth looking at KKCI, Shado Vao, and MJS, too (these are the Double-attacking Jedi in the price range I'm suggesting). 1) Seba has better overall basic stats than any of them (and, if we keep the HP at 150, better than Kol). 2) Like the others, she has a special ability "gimmick" (in her case Ambush/Rend). I'd judge that as roughly comparable to KKCI's Disruptive/LS Duelist, and MJS's Stealth/Cunning, and better than Shado's GMA or Kol's Duelist. 3) Although her Force abilities are a little limited compared to some of the others in variety, I don't think she looses out too much because of the synergy. Lightsaber Deflect and Force Leap work well with her mobile attack concept, and Force Valor is a good "swing" ability, because she can be either a leader or commander (adding some flexibility to her role in a squad). If we keep her as indicated below (including the rough price), I would suggest one (or both) of the following): *Increase Rend+10 to Rend+20 and/or *Add one more special ability. I could see something like Resilient (as already noted), LS Duelist, or even Mettle (which would be a bit redundant with MJS, but would give her great synergy with Leia Skywalker). Seba SebatyneCost: 47 Hit Points: 150 Defense: 21 Attack: 14 Damage: 20 UniqueMelee AttackDouble AttackAmbushRend +10Force 4Force LeapForce Valor Lightsaber DeflectYou're contradicting yourself. I would assume you want her to have 150 HP, as that's your most recent post. Now, I wouldn't price her quite that high WITHOUT something else. She compares to neither MJJ or Shado Vao, the two best melee characters for the NR that have some good board range, like Saba. Ambush, Double, and Rend +10 doesn't compare to Twin, Lightsaber, Cunning Attack, and LS Assault or GMA, Double Attack, and Shado's many LS powers. I think she should STAY between Kol and MJJ if her HP stays at 150. I would say, using that version, we should up the Rend to +20 and price her at 42 or 43. Unless we want to encroach on Shado's point range, in which case we'd likely have to add another thing (like Lightsaber Duelist).
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Post by gwek on Jan 8, 2010 19:47:26 GMT -5
How would Mettle give her great synenergy with Leia? The only time that could be used is if Saba didn't use Valor in order to get Evade from Wedge (and I for one would most likely use Valor quite often). Leia Skywalker affects ALLIES, not followers. I thought about Stable Footing, but stopped short from throwing it out because it's not really an ability that she seems to have demonstrated.
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Post by Roque Saber on Jan 8, 2010 19:54:05 GMT -5
But Wedge doesn't. Agreed on Stable Footing but, like BH9 said, she definitely needs some more.
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Post by gwek on Jan 8, 2010 19:58:29 GMT -5
Yeah, but Wedge isn't the end-all, be-all. There are saving throws other than Evade to be made in the game.
And while she CAN be played with Force Valor, the beauty of it is that she doesn't have to be.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jan 8, 2010 20:00:20 GMT -5
Hmm.......Momentum or Cunning Attack? Or something less direct, like Rolling Cleave (or Cleave)?
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Post by gwek on Jan 8, 2010 20:26:07 GMT -5
You're contradicting yourself. I would assume you want her to have 150 HP, as that's your most recent post. No, I said I'd rather lower her HP and cost than give her another damage booster. No contradiction. MJJ is not a melee piece, so she's not the greatest point for comparison. Melee pieces are designed (and priced) differently than non-melee ones. Personally, I think that melee pieces usually get the shaft, but if we're going to make these "feel like real WotC pieces", we need to abide by their guidelines as best we can (which probably means shafting the melee pieces a bit!). As for Shadow, although he does have GMA and quite a range of Force powers, she would have 50% more HP (which is pretty significant!) and a better attack. He can also only achieve 60 damage by using Force Precision successfully 2 times in a round--which he can only do if he ISN'T using anything else, and only as long as he has FP. (Eventually, he'll only be able to pull it off once per round). I'm not necessarily saying that Saba is a better piece overall, but I don't think that Shado is as good comparitively as you indicate. I'm fine with adding something, but if we can avoid LS Duelist and find something more unique, I'd prefer it. As I think I've pointed out elsewhere, LS Duelist is not handed out by WotC too often. With 1 or 2 exceptions, those with LSD are: 1) Versions of Dooku 2) from the Old Republic era (when dueling was far more common) or 3) Jedi instructors (generally, the battle master of the temple)
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Post by xpraider on Jan 8, 2010 20:31:50 GMT -5
If I may make a small point here before things keep going. By all means we need to make sure that the figure reflects what the character is. And while the Seba being suggested so far are good, at this point I'm wondering what can really differentiate her from other figures. So far most of the unique jedi for the NR are in the 38-50 point range, for a total of 9. Now, considering the, we have KKJBM, KKCI, MJJ, Kol Skywalker, and Shado Vao as probably the better ones of them. The others are either just alright or meh. And then there's Garm and Han.
Which gives us 7 figures in that point range that Seba would have to contend against for a place in a squad, especially since at best you'd be able to get 4 of them in a 200 point squad, or 2/3 depending on what other figures are in the squad.
What we don't have are figures in the high 20s to mid 30s as far as point value goes, save Kyle Katarn at 31.
So in my opinion, Seba needs to be able to really stand out to be considered in a 40+ point range, or cost in a lower range to alter the type of squads she can be in.
Not to say that any of the Sebas here are bad per se, but when you've got triple disruptive with 140 HPs, or Twin/Cunning/Assault, or Double/Duelist/FP2/Renewal/MOTF for 38 points, or Double/Disruptive/NTMTO/Cunning/GreaterMobile, I don't know how many squads she'll be able to take a slot from, or how many new types of squads she'll be able to jump into.
Take it for what you will, but it would be nice to see her able to bring something new to the NR, or provide a very nice synergy with other figures, in which she gets a nice boost, or gives a nice boost.
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Post by saber1 on Jan 8, 2010 21:54:38 GMT -5
Though I gave her GMA, I like the idea of Ambush. It fits her and its a bit more unique than GMA. Here's what I think she should have, followed by what would be cool.
REQUIRED *130-150 HP *21+ DEF *12+ ATK *Double Attack *Rend +10/20 *Lightsaber Defense *Force Valor *Force Renewal
RECOMMENDATIONS *Force Sense *40-47 cost *Pilot *Force Leap *Intuition/Surprise Move *MotF (dreaming a bit, but might work based on combo of Force powers) *Cleave - good idea bh9 and really adds to the "speed" feel with Leap/Ambush/Surprise Move *Mettle
I'd like to see the NR get a legitimate and flexible "speed" piece and to my recollection neither Intuition nor Surprise Move have made an appearance in the NR (aside from Sazen). Saba seems a logical fit and with only a consistant 50 Damage output per round it remains balanced. I agree that she should NOT have LS Duelist as Kyle grants it and Kol already has it. This is one reason I recommend LS Defense over LS Deflect alone.
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Post by saber1 on Jan 8, 2010 22:15:26 GMT -5
How about this?
Saba Sebatyne COST: 40-49 HP: 140-150 DEF: 21-22 ATK: 13-14 DAM: 20
Special Abilities Unique, Melee Ambush Double Attack Rend +20 Rolling Cleave
Force Powers Force 2, Renewal 1 Force Leap Force Valor Lightsaber Defense Surprise Move
This gives her a very niche feel with such a "speed" focus. Renewal is needed and she'll likely run low/out of FP's quickly. Also, a lack of offensive Force powers requires her to get into the thick of battle to inflict damage. She can do so quickly and thus should have LS Defense to keep those HP around.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jan 8, 2010 22:42:12 GMT -5
You're contradicting yourself. I would assume you want her to have 150 HP, as that's your most recent post. No, I said I'd rather lower her HP and cost than give her another damage booster. No contradiction. MJJ is not a melee piece, so she's not the greatest point for comparison. Melee pieces are designed (and priced) differently than non-melee ones. Personally, I think that melee pieces usually get the shaft, but if we're going to make these "feel like real WotC pieces", we need to abide by their guidelines as best we can (which probably means shafting the melee pieces a bit!). As for Shadow, although he does have GMA and quite a range of Force powers, she would have 50% more HP (which is pretty significant!) and a better attack. He can also only achieve 60 damage by using Force Precision successfully 2 times in a round--which he can only do if he ISN'T using anything else, and only as long as he has FP. (Eventually, he'll only be able to pull it off once per round). I'm not necessarily saying that Saba is a better piece overall, but I don't think that Shado is as good comparitively as you indicate. I'm fine with adding something, but if we can avoid LS Duelist and find something more unique, I'd prefer it. As I think I've pointed out elsewhere, LS Duelist is not handed out by WotC too often. With 1 or 2 exceptions, those with LSD are: 1) Versions of Dooku 2) from the Old Republic era (when dueling was far more common) or 3) Jedi instructors (generally, the battle master of the temple) No offense, but you're not really thinking outside of the box. She PLAYS similarly to MJJ and Shado in that she does her damage while basing an enemy after moving, not while standing in one square and whacking away (such as the two higher-priced Katarns). While melee and ranged pieces are definitely priced differently, I never suggested we take MJJ and compare for costing Saba, but make sure that Saba isn't eclipsed by MJJ. One way to do this is by making her cost less. Compared to Saba, MJJ is about the same defensively, maybe slight edge to Saba because Mara usually needs Wedge/Leia to stand out defensively. However, in terms of offense, Saba cannot compare to MJJ (and she shouldn't). Now, with Shado, Saba may have significantly more HP, but Shado has Force Renewal, LS Block, MotF, and +1 defense, which (IMO) makes him quite a bit better than Saba in terms of defense. Offensively, GMA provides WAY more flexibility than Ambush. In some situations, you have to win init to get a good shot at the character you want to target with Ambush, and using it leaves Saba vulnerable to counter attack, while Shado can move away (blocking/deflecting/riposting the AoO). I would say their offensive abilities are about even, with both able to deal 50 damage a turn in a lot of situations (when within 6 squares of an enemy), though Shado can do more if he wants to, like you said. MJJ and Shado may not be perfect pieces to compare her to, but they're the best pieces we've got to compare with. KKCI is a pathetic piece (I might even go so far as to say that I hate what WotC did with that piece), and I don't think we should compare to him because he has nearly no use when there are so many better options in the NR. Who else do you think we should look to for costing/comparing for playability? I kind of agree with you on LS Duelist, though. I don't really think she should have it, but she should probably have something else and I'm not really sure what. Anyone have any suggestions? I agree with xpraider too, she needs to stand out from the packed 35-55 NR Unique section. Ambush and abilities that synergize with that (something like Momentum or Cunning Attack, or Rolling Cleave or Intuition) would work well, and I think we should build around that rather than having the option for her to be a commander when she has much better synergy without using Force Valor (and there is Jolee, who is cheap and can be brought in if Force Valor is for some reason needed). I also agree with most of what saber1 has posted. I think Deflect over Defense is fine, and I'm not sure she NEEDS FR, but it would definitely give her something over some other 35-55 NR Uniques. Good suggestions; Surpirse Move or Pilot would be interesting.
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Post by gwek on Jan 8, 2010 23:01:20 GMT -5
I think Rolling Cleave is a good addition (although I don't remember Saba being quite so excellent a combatant... still, she's a Barabel, so I guess it's a reasonable fudge).
I think Surprise Move or Intuition would be overkill. Movement breakers of any sort are really pretty rare, and I don't think there's any piece (espeically a melee piece that has more than one).
There are, for example, only 3 melee pieces with GMA, and Saba would be the first "normal" (vs Droid/critter) with Ambush to begin with (a pretty interesting piece even without anything else). There are less than a half dozen pieces each with Intuition and Surprise Move (and not one of those with Intuition is a melee piece).
Point is, any one of these abilities is pretty impressive, but two is too much.
Additionally, from a flavor point of view, if a character WERE to have two of these abilities, it should probably be a character who moves like lightning... and I don't remember that being Saba. One movement breaker can represent her predatory nature, but I think two busts an accurate (or balanced) representation.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Jan 8, 2010 23:05:33 GMT -5
Sure, that makes sense. I see your point, and kind of agree with it. Did we want to change Rend to +20?
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Post by gwek on Jan 8, 2010 23:24:15 GMT -5
No offense, but you're not really thinking outside of the box. Ain't my job to. As I've said before, I signed on to this project in part for game balance and keeping things accurate to the WotC "feel"... which often means thinking INSIDE that ol' box. I must respectfully disagree, especially with respect to MJJ. Compared to MJJ, Saba is a melee piece vs ranged, with higher base damage and signigicantly higher HP. Unlike MJJ, she can either be a follower (benefitting from some excellent faction commander effects) or a commander herself, offering an effect that the faction doesn't have. While I understand what you're saying about not being eclipsed by MJJ, I really don't think she is, because you'd use the pieces under different circumstances. It's kinda like, in the Old Rep, the new Jedi Watchman is a pretty solid character, but he doesn't "eclipse" Atton Rand, because you'd use the two of them in completely different circumstances. You're correct that this defensive combo is quite good... but using it reduces Shadow's damage output, limiting him to 40 damage (less than Saba). Since Saba's main defensive advantage (high HP) and main offensive abilities (Ambush/Rend) are dedicated special abilities rather than Force-dependent, I'd judge them overall superior (or, at the very least, roughly equal overall). At this point, I'm assuming that we'll likely be upping Rend to +20, which puts them on equal footing for max damage. You're right that GMA is more flexible than Ambush, but maximizing Shado's damage output (based on using Precision twice--which assumes he has 2 FP he can use) is more situational. I understand that you may not personally like KKCI, but personal opinion shouldn't necessarily remove him from the equation. He's a viable squad option, especially because of his commander effect. I've already noted the pieces I think are the best comparisons (including Shado), and I think that Saba, especially with another gimmick like Rolling Cleave added, certainly has enough going for her that she stands out in the pack. Is she a wonderful, aggressively priced piece? No, she's not. But, personally, I don't think the NR needs any more of those right now... Technically speaking, NOT giving her Force Renewal gives her something somewhat unique (if likely rarely used) over many other, similarly priced pieces: she can benefit from GMLS's commander effect. A minor point, but possibly worth mentioning.
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