|
Post by gwek on Jan 6, 2010 0:41:34 GMT -5
When Saba first showed up, I believe she was leader of a squadron of Jedi pilots (hence, both pilot and a leadership angle). I don't know that we NEED to maintain that part of her, given how the character evolved, but I think that part of her history is why people have put Pilot on her. As for a commander effect: she wasn't a leader per se, but was a Jedi Master and a member of the Jedi Council. Specifically, she was Leia's Master/mentor. To my mind, that means that she COULD have a CE, but I'd be just as fine without her having one. (Force Valor serves nicely, in that it fills both parts, I think.) I think the overall mix of abilities looks good (although I'm not commenting on the stats or cost, because I'd want to compare her to other pieces first). I'd be okay with losing Pilot to buy a little space. Even though I had it on my list, I'm not loving Levitation. I'm not sure if that's because I'm wary of giving a tactical ability like that to the already-powerful NR, or simply because I don't remember her ever using the ability!
|
|
|
Post by darthgrievous on Jan 6, 2010 11:13:53 GMT -5
What if we give her an ability or her and just Leia. Force Valor would be nice to gain a CE. She definately has a lot of force powers that she commonly used. So lets get the full list of those and eliminate some of them
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Jan 6, 2010 11:55:42 GMT -5
With respect to something for her and Leia: I had suggested Synergy with characters whose name contains "Jedi Knight." This would provide synergy with both Jedi versions of Leia, as well as the YJK (although not strictly accurate, the YJK can always use a little help...).
|
|
|
Post by Roque Saber on Jan 6, 2010 14:53:47 GMT -5
YJK is beyond help... We don't want to let her accuracy falter just to help out an unused piece. Wookieepedia explicitly states that she was a master of Telekinesis, plus there's only one character who currently has it. Pedia also says she was extremely skilled in Force Sense, like really, really skilled in it. I know Leia, JK already has it, but would it be fitting?
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Jan 6, 2010 15:39:27 GMT -5
YJK is beyond help... We don't want to let her accuracy falter just to help out an unused piece. Note that I'm not suggesting she be designed to help the YJK specifically, but if we want her to boost Leia, there's a way to have her (accurately) boost Leia, while also not LIMITING her to helping only Leia (again, accurately, since she DID mentor other knights and padawans). Wookieepedia seems to cite a single example of TK use. Not sure if we want to put too much stock in that.
|
|
|
Post by bountyhunter9 on Jan 6, 2010 19:17:26 GMT -5
I agree with Gwek here. The Wook says that about any prestigious Jedi is a master of telekinesis, and this is especially true for characters from the EU, and books specifically, because we are not actually "seeing" what's happening, only what's imprinted in our minds based on what the author has written. For instance (note that this is not an exact excerpt):
"Saba was adept at many powers of the Light side of the Force, including telekinesis, which she often used to unbalance her opponents in battle"
Because of the use of the phrase "often used", it could be interpreted that she had a lot of experience in using the power, and therefore would be considered a master of it. This would also change based on the reader's interpretation of "mastering" a Force power: does one have to be about as good as Palpatine or Galen Marek to be a 'master' of Force lightning, or only as good as say Count Dooku?
Because the Wookieepedia entries are usually only written from a single point of view, one cannot always assume that the word in an article is final, unless suitable references have been made. As Gwek pointed out, there is a single reference in the Wookieepedia article to Saba's prowess in telekinesis.
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Jan 6, 2010 21:52:58 GMT -5
So if we consider tentatively removing Levitation, how about something like this (working of RS's stats): Seba Sebatyne Cost: HP: 150 Def: 21 Att:14 Dmg:20 Melee Attack Double Attack Ambush Rend +10 Synergy (+4 Attack to allies whose name contains "Jedi Knight") Force 4 Force Valor Force Leap Lightsaber Deflect I put a set Force rather than Renewal because it sort of defines how she's played, then: she can either be more commander-y (Force Valor) or a combat character (Leap/Deflect).
|
|
|
Post by darthgrievous on Jan 6, 2010 23:16:18 GMT -5
Id almost like to see Leap gone and add Force Sense, but thats IMO. What about a healing ability, wasn't she also a good healer, but if you check out the boards Dark Side Comics and myself made Tekli for the NR with Force Heal 30 and she is amazing.
|
|
|
Post by Roque Saber on Jan 7, 2010 0:42:21 GMT -5
I still think Synenergy is being mistreated like that. Synenergy is meant to show close bonds between 2 or more characters. I don't think it would be in the nature of the ability to allow that to be extended to characters like the YJK. Yes, she might have mentored some padawans, but that's very different from her relationship to Leia.
I agree that a Heal would be a beneficial add. If she is going to have a fixed force, I think it should be upped to 5.
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Jan 7, 2010 0:53:47 GMT -5
Id almost like to see Leap gone and add Force Sense, but thats IMO. What about a healing ability, wasn't she also a good healer, but if you check out the boards Dark Side Comics and myself made Tekli for the NR with Force Heal 30 and she is amazing. I would say no healing, precisely because of characters like Tekli (and the already-existing Cade Skywalker, Padawan). The NR has multiple heal options already. Saba doesn't need to be yet another one, especially when there's so much other ground that can be covered with her. I still think Synenergy is being mistreated like that. Synenergy is meant to show close bonds between 2 or more characters. I don't think it would be in the nature of the ability to allow that to be extended to characters like the YJK. Yes, she might have mentored some padawans, but that's very different from her relationship to Leia. Actually, the characters I was thinking of were her Barabel relatives (which whom she had a CLOSER relationship than she did with Leia). A few sets ago, I might have agreed with your take on Synergy (limiting it to two characters), but the Imperial Knight Synergy and especially the Antarian Ranger Synergy sort of re-defined things. This is a case where I'm willing to squint a little to allow playability to trump absolute story accuracy. Also, please consider what I'm trying to accomplish: Giving Saba a Synergy does two things: it reflects her mentorship of Leia as a Jedi and it also shows her prowess as a leader of lesser Jedi (based on her role as a Council member, and as the leader of a cadre of Jedi pilots). In essense, consider it a limited extension of her Force Valor. Assuming for a moment that the single most important aspect of the Synergy is giving Leia a bonus (and I'm not necessarily saying that it is), we have to consider how to accomplish that. "Characters whose name contains Leia" seems the obvious way to go... But wait, there are 10 different Leias (8 of which are Rebel and can be brought in via Jacen). We COULD have Saba give Synergy to THOSE Leias as well, but those are all "pre-Jedi" versions of Leia, so I would argue that, strictly speaking, that would be an inappropriate synergy. Our other option is to go with "Jedi Knight" (because both Jedi-type Leias have that in their name). This is accurate in terms of story, and has the added benefit of giving Saba some potentially broader appeal in terms of synergy (which, again, accurately reflects the role she played in the EU as a leader/mentor figure). Why? There are a number of perfectly good pieces representing perfectly good characters who have Force 4 in her "weight class" (40s-50s). Was she stronger in the Force than, say, Kyle (who has 4)? I don't necessarily think so. In terms of game balance, consider that she has quite a bit of raw combat prowess too fall back on, so her FPs are less important than the FPs of a character who must rely on their Force powers.
|
|
|
Post by darthgrievous on Jan 7, 2010 7:41:26 GMT -5
I am fine with a fixed amount of force whether it be 4 or 5. Just look at Kreia, she has fixed force and you can't even use all of her powers effectively.
|
|
|
Post by bountyhunter9 on Jan 7, 2010 16:07:51 GMT -5
Synergy needs a rename, because it's a completely different version of the ability that WotC has used. WotC's Synergy provides a bonus to the character WITH the synegy, as long as a character that fits certain specifications (ie: name contains, with a Force rating) is within 6 squares. This Synergy is more like a commander effect, in that it affects OTHER characters.
Also, Synergy is one of very few abilities where the name stays the same but the definitions change from character to character (along with things like Affinity and Rapport), but this version takes that flexibility and "breaks" it.
Other than that, she looks like a good high 30s character, except the HP is huge. If we're going to give her that kind of HP, I think she needs to be a better combatant and cost a bit more (low-to-mid 40s). To get her up there, we could add something like Cunning Attack and/or Momentum (keep in mind she's filling a very similar role to Mara Jade, Jed, so she needs to be good at what she does), another strong (though not as strong) attack option instead of Ambush (ie: Mighty Swing), or something that would allow more movement, such as Intuition or Knight/Master Speed.
|
|
|
Post by saber1 on Jan 7, 2010 23:14:06 GMT -5
Saba SebatyneCost: 48 Faction: New Republic Hit Points: 130 Defense: 21 Attack: 12 Damage: 20 Special AbilitiesUnique, Melee Attack, Double AttackCunning (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against an enemy who has not activated this round) Greater Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking. This character can make extra attacks even if it moves this turn, but it must make them all before resuming movement) Intuition (Once per round, after initiative is determined, this character can immediately move up to its speed before any other character activates) PilotForce PowersForce 2, Force Renewal 1Force Push 2 (Force 2, replaces attacks: range 6; 20 Damage; push back target 2 squares if Huge or smaller) Force Valor (Force 2, replaces attacks: For the rest of the skirmish, this character gains the following commander effect: Followers within 6 squares gain +2 Attack and +2 Defense) Lightsaber Block (Force 1: When hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) Saba Sebatyne, Jedi MasterCost: 57 Faction: New Republic Hit Points: 140 Defense: 22 Attack: 13 Damage: 20 Special AbilitiesUnique, Melee Attack, Double AttackCunning Attack +20 (+4 Attack and +20 Damage against an enemy who has not activated this round) Intuition (Once per round, after initiative is determined, this character can immediately move up to its speed before any other character activates) Rend +10 (If both its attacks hit the same adjacent character, this character’s second attack gets +10 Damage) Force PowersForce 2, Force Renewal 1, Master of the Force 2Force Leap (Force 1, this character can move through enemy characters without provoking attacks of opportunity) Force Push 4 (Force 4, replaces attacks: sight; 40 Damage; push back target 4 squares if Huge or smaller) Force Sense (Force 1, usable only on this character’s turn: Enemy characters lose Stealth for the rest of the round) Lightsaber Defense (Force 1: Whenever this character is hit by an attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) I'll resubmit my entires as it seems several in this topic are circling around concepts very close to what I've come up with. Although my versions don't have any synergy, per se, the top version incorporates Force Valor to represent her force melding and leadership abilities. Both have strong mobility as well as Cunning to highlighte her predatory Barabel nature. Additionally, her stats grant her solid staying power in keeping with the fortitude of her species. Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by gwek on Jan 8, 2010 9:45:48 GMT -5
Synergy needs a rename, because it's a completely different version of the ability that WotC has used. WotC's Synergy provides a bonus to the character WITH the synegy, as long as a character that fits certain specifications (ie: name contains, with a Force rating) is within 6 squares. This Synergy is more like a commander effect, in that it affects OTHER characters. I hereby withdraw by suggestion (with some embarrassment!). I guess I think confusing that Synergy with Rapport and Affinity as an ability that "goes both ways." Personally, I'd rather see the HP and cost go down that give her another damage booster. If she has Ambush, she already has a better-than-average chance of pulling off Double Attack (assuming she acts against an opponent who has not activated). Add Rend to that, and she can do 50 damage on a regular basis, which is significantly more than most Jedi without Triple Attack (who, frankly, are lucky if they can pull off 40 consistently!). As for a movement breaker: I think adding something on top of Ambush (especially Ambush combined with Force Leap) might be excessive.
|
|
|
Post by bountyhunter9 on Jan 8, 2010 15:45:40 GMT -5
Other than that, she looks like a good high 30s character, except the HP is huge. If we're going to give her that kind of HP, I think she needs to be a better combatant and cost a bit more (low-to-mid 40s). To get her up there, we could add something like Cunning Attack and/or Momentum (keep in mind she's filling a very similar role to Mara Jade, Jed, so she needs to be good at what she does), another strong (though not as strong) attack option instead of Ambush (ie: Mighty Swing), or something that would allow more movement, such as Intuition or Knight/Master Speed. Personally, I'd rather see the HP and cost go down that give her another damage booster. If she has Ambush, she already has a better-than-average chance of pulling off Double Attack (assuming she acts against an opponent who has not activated). Add Rend to that, and she can do 50 damage on a regular basis, which is significantly more than most Jedi without Triple Attack (who, frankly, are lucky if they can pull off 40 consistently!). As for a movement breaker: I think adding something on top of Ambush (especially Ambush combined with Force Leap) might be excessive.[/quote] That's fine, I just thought she was given such excessive HP for a reason. Would 130 HP be good? Now, costing her is going to be really difficult, because of Kol. Should we go just below him, at 36 or 37?
|
|