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Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 22:58:44 GMT -5
cough cough...needs shields Shields would be fun, but if we added it to Karath due to the video game, why didn't WotC add it to all the characters from the game? Honestly, I would be content with the character either way. I'm also probably okay either way, but agree. If we used the game as a model, everyone with a ranged attack would have Shields and Grenades, every Sith would have Force Lightning and Life Drain, and every non-Unique would have Swarm.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 19, 2009 7:36:40 GMT -5
But all of those minis have basically been made anyway, so now that we are making Saul Karath it is only fitting that he atleast can have them, especially since he only has 50HP currently. Doesn't he have shields in something other than KOTOR?
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Post by gwek on Dec 19, 2009 21:54:11 GMT -5
Who said he had 50 HP? We've got three unreconciled versions (and I'm already working to tweak a 4th). 2 of the 3 have 60 HP (not a huge difference), and I could see going up as high as 70 or 80.
On the point of Shields: as I've said, I don't necessarily see a problem with it, because it gives him something of a unique feel. On the other hand, he doesn't have Shields in any of his appearances in the comic. In the RPG, his character is statted without Shields. They're really just in the video game because it's a video game. (Which, as I say, doesn't mean he can't have 'em but also doesn't mean he MUST...).
I think we should get to the core of what we want Saul to be, and then decide if Shields are appropriate (based on pricing, how many other abilities he has, etc).
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 20, 2009 9:44:54 GMT -5
Looks like Betrayal, Opportunist and some kind of reserves are the big 3 for this character.
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Post by Jm419 on Dec 20, 2009 11:21:59 GMT -5
Actually, I'd definitely want the shields. It made him much, much harder to kill - his shields were unique in how powerful they were (with the possible exception of Bendak). Reserves I'd be okay on, especially the double reserves thing - that's a nice dynamic, kudos to Gwek. Betrayal would probably belong on a Revan, but not on this piece. It wouldn't be bad, but I'd say, at the moment, to leave it off, if only to keep his cost down.
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Post by gwek on Dec 20, 2009 13:29:01 GMT -5
I agree that Betrayal is better suited to a character like Revan.
So for the moment, let's assume Reserves. I think a limited form of Old Republic Reserves is definitely the way to go, since it allows him to bring his Old Republic soldiers along with him to the Sith.
Although I live the double Reserves, I could see losing the Sith Reserves before the Old Rep one.
As a secondary question, if we give him Reserves, do we also want to give him Recon (which doubles his chances of activating Reserves)?
I'm not necessarily opposed to Opportunist, but I think it feels sort of derivative (Yularen, Piett, even Thrawn).
In terms of commander effect, I'm going to push for a two-parter. Here's what I had initially suggested:
Granting characters with Deadeye Accurate Shot is, I think, a good synergy concept for him. On the Old Rep side, it helps Carth Onasi. On the Sith side, it helps the Sith Troopers, who can gain Deadeye via the Sith Trooper Commander. These are exactly the people Saul SHOULD be helping. In either case, his allies can also gain Deadeye via the Rodian Hunt Master (although if we keep it limited to non-Fringe--which I would suggest to help keep his cost down, and to keep with his arrogant, military bearing--the Hunt Master himself does not benefit).
A broader version of this would be something like "Non-Fringe followers without a Force rating gain Accurate shot." This helps a wider array of pieces in both factions (more troopers and soldiers, Bao-Dur, the Antarian Rangers, etc), while still keeping Accurate Shot away from Mira and Atton Rand (I think either of them might be overpowered with Accurate Shot). Obviously, for the many melee pieces, it doesn't matter... with the possibly exception of the Sith pieces with Reach.
My second part--Allies within 6 squares without a Force rating gain Evade--I'm not sure sure about. Since Saul can help both the Sith and the Old Republic, he's a good opportunity to help balance the scales a little. Honestly, I'd like to see him be as useful a character as General Wedge. The Sith and Old Rep NEED a General Wedge, after all, and I think they need something defensive.
Evade comes to mind, but obviously, as stated, it doesn't help the majority of pieces. On the other hand, the idea of Lord Hoth or Darth Bane with Evade makes me a little nervous...
Thoughts?
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 21, 2009 0:38:42 GMT -5
Yay so it looks like shield will be staying after all. so how about his for reserves...Old Republic Reserves 20, on a roll of 11...Sith Reserves 10, on a roll of 1. and then Opportunist 10
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Post by gwek on Dec 21, 2009 2:10:53 GMT -5
Admiral Saul Karath Cost:[/b] 27 Hit Points: 60 Defense: 17 Attack: 9 Damage: 10
Unique Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy) Affinity (This character may be in an Old Republic squad) Old Republic Military Reserves 20 (If you roll exactly 19 for initiative, you can add up to 20 points of non-Unique Old Republic followers without a Force rating to your squad immediately before your first activation of the round) Recon (Roll twice for initiative once per round, choosing either roll, if any character with Recon in the same squad has line of sight to an enemy) Shields 2 (When this character takes damage, make 2 saves; each roll of 11 reduces the damage dealt by 10)
Commander Effect: Fringe characters are not subject to these commander effects. Followers within 6 squares without a Force rating gain Accurate Shot. Allies within 6 squares gain Shields 1.
Design Notes: I'm not 100% sold on this version myself, but I wanted to try it out to see how the pieces fit together.
First, to make more room and keep the cost down, I cut Sith Military Reserves (as I've previously noted, Old Rep soldiers are the people he's bringing in, regardless of which side he's working for). I kept Recon, because it's a strong combo with Reserves, and is also something that both the Sith and Old Rep could use.
Rather than Opportunist (which I feel is an over-used damage booster for military types), I tried him out with Accurate Shot. Saul has it himself, and also grants it to non-Fringe, non-Force followers. Although Accurate Shot is a powerful option, because of the limits, there aren't too many pieces who can benefit (just enough to make decent shooter support for each faction, I think). On the Sith side, it's mostly trooper types (unless Mandos are brought in via Uliq). On the Old Rep side, it's the soldiers, the Antarian Rangers, Carth, and Bao-Dur.
Arguably, the Old Republic benefits more from this commander effect than the Sith, but that's okay, because the Sith, I think, benefit more from the Reserves (since it gives them more options).
Finally, folk like the idea of Shields, so I gave them to him. I'm not sure that I'm sold on this, because Shields have previously been limited to droids. However, Shields are part of the KotOR video game, so giving him Shields, and allowing him to grant them as a commander effect, makes him largely an artifact of his era.
In past discussions of Old Republic-era pieces, I've argued against granting Shields as a commander effect. Since they're a piece of equipment, if one is to give them out, it should be via a special ability (as with the Training Seargent).
However, I wanted Saul to give out a defensive option as a commander effect (since the Sith and Old Rep are both sorely in need of one), and if he was going to have Shields himself, the commander effect seemed a logical extension.
The interesting thing is that there are synergies on both sides, and those synergies help make him (potentially) a somewhat different piece in each faction.
In the Sith, for example, a natural pairing is with HoloSid, who can not only benefit from the Shields 1, but also gives allies FPs to allow them to re-roll failed saves. Since Force-users often have better ways to spend their points, the non-Force pieces (many of which also benefit from Accurate Shot) would be the ones most likely to re-roll, I think.
On the Old Republic side, a natural pairing is with Nomi Sunrider, who can provide Mettle to those with Force ratings, meaning that the Old Republic Force users have a good reason to save their FPs for re-rolls.
Again, I'm not sure how much I like him, but I wanted to get him out there to see what other people think.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 21, 2009 11:11:03 GMT -5
Well now that you have explained it all, I really like this one a lot. I was only thinking Shields 1, but since you gave him shields 2 I like him even more.
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Post by gwek on Dec 21, 2009 11:50:06 GMT -5
Thanks!
As I say, I'm not sure that I love him, but I think he's a decent approximation of the character AND provides capabilities that are of use to both the Old Rep and Sith AND sort of fills a bit of a different niche in each.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 21, 2009 16:38:51 GMT -5
I like this version as well. I don't have anything I would suggest changing, other than maybe the cost (seems just a bit too high, by one or two points). What do others think of this?
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Post by gwek on Dec 21, 2009 16:42:48 GMT -5
I'd be happy to lower the price--the Old Rep and Sith can use all the aggressively priced pieces they can get!
I'll leave him at 27 for now, until others weigh in.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 22, 2009 10:03:40 GMT -5
Id go with 25
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Post by gwek on Dec 22, 2009 13:59:25 GMT -5
So, other than a slight price reduction, are we close to done?
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Post by Dendrite on Dec 22, 2009 14:28:24 GMT -5
I like where you're going with him. I was thinking about something to boost attack or defense, but Malak and Revan already boost attack for the Sith, and OR too if you have a crusader. You seem to have defense boosted via shields as well. Interesting...
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