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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 13, 2009 11:46:50 GMT -5
Ok since no one has touched upon him yet, let me be the first to throw up the stats that I made for him recently, and we are slowly working on in our comic shop in Sarasota, FL.
Admiral Saul Karath Cost 31(Sith) HP 60 Def 17 Attack 9 Dmg 20
Unique, Pilot Affinity Old Republic Opportunist +4 att +10 dmg Shields 1 (quite canon if you read on him)
Commander Effect: Soldiers/Troopers gain Squad Assault.
Ok so Saul Karath, definately has to have Shields, it says it right in his history. Opportunist makes him push out 30 dmg, but without double, twin, etc it doesn't make him a beatstick at all. Also, with the CE, while on Sith, Troopers gain a nice added bonus that they very very much need, and then while on OR he helps the Soldiers as well.
Thoughts?
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 13, 2009 13:48:57 GMT -5
It's a good start, but it doesn't seem to be worth 31 points, IMO. I think adding in Betrayal and giving the troopers something along with Squad Assault (maybe more defensive) would make him worth over 30 points.
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Post by gwek on Dec 13, 2009 22:36:50 GMT -5
As a piece who can help revolutionize my two favorite floundering factions, Saul is near and dear to my heart. I'll post some of my variants of him soon (I need to dig them up from those new gorram forums on WotC).
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 13, 2009 23:22:21 GMT -5
Hmm never thought about Betrayal at all, guess I don't know him that well at all. What about changing his CE to Squad Assault and Advantageous cover, that would give them a bonus on both ends, which troopers for both factions truly need.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 14, 2009 14:10:12 GMT -5
The CE should be the highlight of the character, and really help out the Soldiers/Troopers of the Sith and OR. I think it should give out two SAs, one offensive and one defensive, to Soldiers/ Troopers, like we're suggesting. I'm not sure exactly what, though. Squad Assault and Adv. Cover could work, but I think we need more opinions. Gwek? RS?
Also, I've seen some other versions of Saul, and I remember one of them having a Rapport for troopers. Would giving this guy a similar Rapport (that also affects Soldiers) work?
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 14, 2009 20:45:55 GMT -5
Hmm Rapport for both troopers and soldiers would be nice and making them useful. If you don't like SA and Adv cover, how about evade? That might keep troopers/soldiers alive for a bit longer.
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Post by gwek on Dec 14, 2009 23:13:09 GMT -5
Here's the Saul Karath I worked up for the "Save the Sith" thread. I think he can be modified a bit, but I think to think he's a very solid starting point.
When you read the design notes, please keep in mind that that this piece was designed as part of a larger agenda (the "5 pieces to save the faction" thread). I don't have the time or energy to edit the comments (and I think they mostly hold true even in the new context).
Admiral Saul Karath Cost:[/b] 28 Hit Points: 60 Defense: 17 Attack: 8 Damage: 10
Unique Affinity (This character may be in an Old Republic squad) Old Republic Military Reserves 20 (If you roll exactly 19 for initiative, you can add up to 20 points of non-Unique Old Republic followers without a Force rating to your squad immediately before your first activation of the round) Recon (Roll twice for initiative once per round, choosing either roll, if any character with Recon in the same squad has line of sight to an enemy) Sith Military Reserves 20 (If you roll exactly 2 for initiative, you can add up to 20 points of non-Unique Sith followers without a Force rating to your squad immediately before your first activation of the round)
Commander Effect: Fringe characters are not subject to these commander effects. Followers with Deadeye gain Accurate Shot (Can attack an enemy with cover even if it's not the nearest enemy). Allies within 6 squares without a Force rating gain Evade (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11).
Admiral Saul Karath defected from the Old Republic, bringing many soldiers with him to bolster the Sith fleet.
Design Notes, Revised: Although I kept Saul Karath in my “top 5,” this piece represents a significant change from the previous version. The original design include bringing new options to the Sith via Old Rep Reinforcements and was also designed to particularly bolster Carth Onasi. I think this version is a bit more useful all around (rather than just boosting Carth), and per my own comments, the Sith don’t need Old Republic options since they have access to the Fringe.
I still like the idea that he can bring Old Rep folk into the Sith, though, which lead to dual Reserves (a concept pioneered by WotC’s Chancellor Palpatine). Paired with Recon, this makes Saul a very efficient commander for bringing new pieces into the game (which, I think, represents the seemingly endless hordes of low-level goons in KotOR pretty well).
While this is a very impressive combination, his Reserves options are pretty limited, and unless you’re working with a specific build, there may be a relative lack of synergy (this is intentional; to help keep his cost down). One nice little synergy: if you’re using Saul with the Sith Officer and roll for Old Rep Reserves, you can still take advantage of the “trooper defense” by pulling in two Wookiee Troopers!
I’ve loosened the commander effects a bit, although kept the non-Fringe requirements there. I considered the option of different commander effects for Sith or Old Rep, but it seemed too complicated (especially when you add in the option for Mandos via Ulic).
Deadeye granting Accurate Shot is obviously a strong choice when paired with Carth Onasi in the Old Republic, and also works with Sith Troopers, who can gain Deadeye via the Sith Trooper Commander. There are two other options, however: first, he works well with a Mando build (via Ulic), since a few Mandos have Deadeye. Finally, the Rodian Hunt Master can grant Deadeye to all manner of followers (but does not himself benefit from Saul’s Accurate Shot commander effect).
I changed the second part of the commander effect so that Evade affects all non-Force allies rather than just followers. This adds extra synergy with pieces like the Sith Officer and has the fun side effect of giving Evade to HoloSid. Although this is pretty potent, I think it’s offset by the inability to affect the Fringe.
In terms of the weaknesses that I think need to be addressed for the Sith faction, Karath deals with a number of them, especially when in combination with other commanders. Speaking strictly in terms of what he brings to the Sith (and not the Old Republic), he clearly works very well with the “trooper defense,” but also helps buff troopers in any build.
Paired with the Sith Officer, his troopers gain a great combo of Evade and Avoid Defeat, but when paired with the Sith Trooper Commander, they can go on the offensive with Accurate Shot (and his Reserves help support either concept), He’s a multifaceted piece who changes flavor depending on which other commanders work with him (which is nicely supplemented by his ability to grant most of them Evade).
Obviously, Recon helps with initiative, and the fact that he works to buff (and bring in more) low cost pieces indirectly assists with tempo control. Also, although there are probably stronger combinations, I think he provides nice minor synergy with the Mandos and their Deadeye.
In terms of stats, Saul is pretty lackluster (relatively average for a military commander piece), but I priced him aggressively. Although he brings a lot of options to the table, many of those options are limited in scope (for example, there are only 6 possible pieces he can bring in via Sith Reserves, and many of them are sub-par pieces, except in the right build). Although he’s a commander and has “twin” Reserves, he’s probably closest to Talon Karrde, so I used that piece as a bit of a starting point (and keep in mind that Talon has access to some of the finest commander effects in the game, while Saul, despite his great combo of abilities, can only be affected by a small handful).
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 15, 2009 9:03:15 GMT -5
Reserves aint bad at all, but still needs Betrayal, Shields, and Pilot and maybe even Opportunist since his att/dmg are so low.
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Post by gwek on Dec 15, 2009 9:30:26 GMT -5
Betrayal? Perhaps, although I think the tone is wrong. I can see why you'd want it for him, and in fact one of my earlier attempts had a variant of Betrayal. But the way I see it, Betrayal is for characters who can convince enemies to join their cause (both Sidious and Kreia are manipulative spin doctors). That's not Saul Karath at all. When he defects to the Sith, he takes the soldiers who are loyal to him. If anything, he should have an "anti-Betrayal" power, making it impossible to followers to switch sides.
Shields? Maybe. Again, I can see why you'd want to do it (I'm assuming this is based on the reference to his prototype Verpine Shields in Wookieepedia). To be honest, though, I think that's taking things out of context a little. In the KotOR video game, almost all the non-Jedi bosses use shields (and practically every Sith is throwing around Lightning and Life Drain like they're going out of style). When we did the original KotOR Virtual Set, this was a concept we dealt with a lot (the translation from video game to non-video game), when we realized that Shields, Sith Lightning, Life Drain, and Swarm (on non-Uniques) were winding up on almost every mini.
Ultimately, the shields Karath has are placed there as a prize to the player for winning the boss fight. That said, I'm not necessarily opposed to Shields for him (it gives him a unique niche), but I don't think it's a "must-have."
Pilot? I don't see it. Regardless of what Wookieepedia says about his history, he's not a pilot in any of his actual appearances. He was a commander of capital ships who had others pilot for him. In his appearances in the game and comic, I don't think we ever see him at the controls of a ship. He is far less of a pilot than, say, Han or Lando.
As for Opportunist, an earlier version had Opportunist+20, but my feeling is that he's here as a commander, not for his own combat abilities. I see him more in the vein of Whorm Loathsom or Rieekan. Having said that, if we add a combat capability, I think it should be on of the things he provides as a commander, to reduce clutter on the page. For example, if we wind up with my commander effect, I would prefer Accurate Shot or Evade for him rather than Opportunist.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 15, 2009 12:04:38 GMT -5
Ok I can see dropping Betrayal. Add/keep Rapport for soldiers/troopers. Drop Pilot as well. Shields would be a fun niche that few characters have. How about Deadeye instead of Opportunist?
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Post by saber1 on Dec 18, 2009 21:40:26 GMT -5
Here is the Karath from my recent custom set. There are definately some similarities with other versions listed in this topic. I opted for Betrayal and the tried-and-true "gain Opportunist" CE. This, I believe, fits his character and those who followed him in defecting.
Admiral Saul Karath Cost: 22 Faction: Sith Hit Points: 50 Defense: 16 Attack: 6 Damage: 10
Special Abilities Unique Affinity (May be in a Old Republic squad) Betrayal (On an attack roll of natural 1 against this character, the attacker joins this character's squad until the end of the skirmish) Opportunist +20 (+4 Attack and +20 Damage against an enemy who has activated this round) Old Republic Reserves 20 (If you roll exactly 6 for initiative, you can add up to 20 points of non-Unique Old Republic characters to your squad immediately before your first activation of the round) Commander Effect Your squad may contain non-Unique Old Republic characters. Non-melee followers within 6 squares gain Opportunist.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 18, 2009 22:11:13 GMT -5
cough cough...needs shields
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Post by saber1 on Dec 18, 2009 22:22:01 GMT -5
cough cough...needs shields Shields would be fun, but if we added it to Karath due to the video game, why didn't WotC add it to all the characters from the game? Honestly, I would be content with the character either way.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 18, 2009 22:29:39 GMT -5
fun is a good thing and not many minis have it anyway.
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Post by saber1 on Dec 18, 2009 22:33:59 GMT -5
fun is a good thing and not many minis have it anyway. True and true.
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