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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 17, 2009 8:04:12 GMT -5
How many points is the new Bane? We could make it so that the two of them together is about 150. Zannah is strong but not a tank by far, we should definately not give her renewal, we have HoloSid for that anyway, but if she is with Bane he wont be on the team anyway. I am thinking there may be no way around it. Soresu, with block and sorcery, 60+ pts.
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Post by gwek on Dec 17, 2009 10:16:53 GMT -5
xpraider: I wasn't necessarily commenting on your most recent take (which, on first glance, seems pretty reasonable), but to the idea that comment after the fact [not from you] that she's "low damage."
dg: Bane is 82 points, which would leave 68 points for Zannah.
If we all agree we want a 60+ Zannah, I think xpraider's is a good starting point.
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Post by saber1 on Dec 17, 2009 12:06:12 GMT -5
Why do we want to add another 60+ point character to the Sith Faction? What is more needed is a solid, mid-cost support piece. If its Zannah at the end of Rule of Two we are shooting for, then a cost in the 40s seems more wise.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 17, 2009 16:25:44 GMT -5
Gwek, did you read my comment at all? IMO, the fact that Style Masteries and Sith Sorcery are on such highly priced characters is only because there are so few examples of them (I can only think of 5 characters off the top of my head with a Style Mastery). The point on the Style Masteries and tier stuff is pretty much moot in that respect because the lowest-costing character with a Style Mastery costs 51 points, pretty much the same as where we were going to cost her.
I also think that Zannah is going to have Sith Sorcery, no matter what. It's simply not her without it. The only way around that would be to create a new version of Sith Sorcery, but there's really no point to creating a custom ability when we already have a good one from WotC.
I agree with saber1 as well. While xpraider's 60+ Zannah is very, very good, giving the Sith ANOTHER 60+ character is not very good at all.
Which brings me to my next point: the Sith are one of the least playable factions, and they need some good pieces to offset their majority of overcosted/too highly costed beats. I think there may be two aggressively costed Sith uniques - Darth Malak, Dark Lord of the Sith and Naga Sadow, compared to the other factions which have...many more. Do you really think Malak and Naga are costed where they are because their abilities/CEs fit into a certain "tier"? Making Zannah an aggresively costed Sith is not necessarily a bad thing. ESPECIALLY if her only attractions are defensive prowess and Sith Sorcery.
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Post by gwek on Dec 17, 2009 19:38:02 GMT -5
Gwek, did you read my comment at all? Yes, BH, I read your comment. I simply happen not to agree with it, and saw no reason to bring that up when there were other posts. That is your opinion. I'm of another opinion. Such is life. I respectfully disagree, since there are multiple suggests to have her priced in the low 40s with such abilities. I agree with saber1 as well. While xpraider's 60+ Zannah is very, very good, giving the Sith ANOTHER 60+ character is not very good at all. Out of curiosity: Why? There are currently roughly equal numbers of Sith uniques priced in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. No matter what we price her at, she is one of a half dozen or so in that category. The point would be to make her a good and playable representative, no matter how we price her. I'm not saying she shouldn't be aggressively priced, but that she shouldn't be priced out of her tier. Malak and Naga Sadow are good examples of aggressively--but appropriately--priced pieces.
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Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 17, 2009 19:53:42 GMT -5
I'm not saying that Style Masteries go to 20 point characters, but we can scratch a few points under WotC's margins, ESPECIALLY if there's only five examples.
I costed my version, which has both Sith Sorcery and Soresu Style Mastery at the cost of 48 points. I disagree with her being in the low 40s with those abilities, as it's not really possible. I can see 47 or 48 as the lowest we should go with those.
Well, yeah the Sith have about the same number of 40, 50, and 60 point pieces, but most factions have say 8 40-point characters, 5 or 6 50-point characters, and 2 or 3 60-point characters, or a ratio similar to that. The Sith are pretty much at a 1:1 ratio, way out of wack when compared to the other factions. Also, because the Sith have fewer good low-cost pieces, you often have to combine beatsticks, which can be detrimental to your squad if a good number of them cost over 60 points.
You think Malak's CE is within a tier? That must be a pretty big and lenient tier there. Not only is he a very good melee character, that CE is insane for that cost. He could have costed in the low 60s with what he has. Naga would probably fit better into one of these "tiers", unless you consider that Sith Sorcery was previously only seen on 80+ point characters, which is a pretty big drop.
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Post by darthgrievous on Dec 17, 2009 20:24:52 GMT -5
Hmmm.....what about this
Darth Zannah Cost: 48 Faction: Sith Hit Points: 100 Defense: 20 Attack: 12 Damage: 20
Special Abilities Unique, Melee Soresu Style (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) Synergy (+4 Attack while within 6 squares of a character whose name contains Darth Bane) Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, it makes 1 extra attack against the same target)
Force Powers Force 2, Force Renewal 1 Force Grip 2 (Force 2, replaces attacks: sight; 20 damage) Lightsaber Block (Force 1: Whenever this character is hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) Sith Sorcery (Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters within 6 squares are considered activated this round; save 11
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Post by saber1 on Dec 17, 2009 21:21:18 GMT -5
darthgrievous: Looks awefully similar to my earlier suggestion. cough-resubmitting for your consideration-cough Darth ZannahCost: 40 Faction: Sith Hit Points: 90 Defense: 21 Attack: 11 Damage: 20 Special AbilitiesUnique, MeleeSoresu Style (When hit by an attack from a nonadjacent enemy, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) Synergy (+4 Attack while within 6 squares of Darth Bane) Twin Attack (Whenever this character attacks, it makes 1 extra attack against the same target) Force PowersForce 2, Force Renewal 1Force Grip 2 (Force 2, replaces attacks: sight; 20 damage) Lightsaber Block (Force 1: Whenever this character is hit by a melee attack, this character takes no damage with a save of 11) Sith Sorcery (Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters within 6 squares are considered activated this round; save 11 This has all the basic elements that makes Zannah who she is by the end of the second Bane novel. Low damage, high sneak and trick abilities. Strong in the force. She is a solid support piece to a bigger beatstick and yet still acceptably balanced and playable.
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Post by Roque Saber on Dec 17, 2009 23:53:54 GMT -5
It's all well and good to say she doesn't dish out a lot of damage, but Double Attack with Opportunist is more than the vast majority of Jedi and Sith can dish out without commander effect assistance. I didn't even realize she had Opportunist. I was under the impression she had Twin or Double (not sure which) for a maximum damage of 40. If we make a different Sith Sorcery, that might be okay, but if we're keeping WotC's, it shouldn't go on her unless she's 60+. The rest of her capabilities don't matter. Really, they don't matter at all? e.g. Force Push 5, previously only on VAR at 48 points is a really powerful ability. Then, lo and behold, we see it on...26 point Kyp Durron? Granted, he's a very aggressively priced piece, but the point is that a previously "high end" ability ended up on a low-cost piece. I think we can take that precedent and use it for Zannah. Take a powerful ability previously only seen on higher-end pieces and put it on a lower costing piece who doesn't quite have the amazing abilities to abuse it.
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Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 2:06:21 GMT -5
That is actually a fair precedent... but remember that Kyp Durron can't use his power under normal circumstances. There is a built-in limitation. He must either be paired with a 70+ cost piece, or wait for a unique ally to be defeated so he can become Savage. He's not exactly an average example.
Having thought about Zannah a bit, I'd like to offer the following suggestion:
Why don't we make her expensive, but well worth her points? Price her at 68 (so she's 150 with Bane). Sith Sorcery, SSM, enough other goodies to make her worth her points (but distinctly different from other Sith Lords in her range). At 100, she should be able to carry the weight of the squad on her shoulders...
But my suggestion is make her really get interesting at 150 or 200 points.
In addition to anything else, we give her a special ability that goes something like this:
The Rule of Two (If your squad contains exactly two Unique Sith characters with a Force rating, both characters gain Ambush and Cloaked until the end of the skirmish)
If played properly, I think this could genuinely make the two of them a legitimate squad unto themselves. And, of course, it doesn't have to be limited to Bane. Any of the Sith Lords benefit. Imagine the pair of assassins that, say, Zannah and Maul could be with such a benefit. Or Malak commanding an army of troopers and goons, safely cloaked, while Zannah hunts the opposing Big Bad. In a high point game, Zannah and Swapper Sidous become a tactical nightmare.
Sure, it limits squad design a bit, in that you want to use two--and only two--unique Sith characters, but there's nothing to prevent you from playing Fringe, and there are an increasing array of nice non-Unique choices for the Sith.
I think such a powerhouse version of Zannah could be interesting, and really shake things up for the Sith dynamic.
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Post by saber1 on Dec 18, 2009 11:22:15 GMT -5
Why don't we make her expensive, but well worth her points? Price her at 68 (so she's 150 with Bane). Sith Sorcery, SSM, enough other goodies to make her worth her points (but distinctly different from other Sith Lords in her range). At 100, she should be able to carry the weight of the squad on her shoulders... Making Zannah and Bane a duo at 150, while cool conceptually and fun, does not add much to the game. The point of making a piece is to improve the game. Most skirmishes are 150 points with many of us playing in tournaments. Pricing her at 60+ points virtually guarantees that she will not be seen in 150 point tournies and will certainly not be competitive. A Bane/Zannah squad will get horribly out activated and out manuevered. Adding 50 more points to her squad building options doesn't help much. Pricing Zannah in the 40's will allow her to be true to the novels while also providing ample squad building options at 150 and 200 points. Moreover, she can be balanced, playable and competitive which will only help the Sith Faction as well as the SWM game. One last note, if I may. A Zannah in the 40's leaves room for a Sith Lord version of her character once more source material has been published.
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Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 11:44:59 GMT -5
What I'm proposing, if properly executed, adds a different type of squad.
I'm also suggesting that Zannah would be an aggressively priced 68-point piece (eg, a boon to the Sith and very playable at 100 points) who has a big added bump at higher levels.
Not necessarily. You're talking about two characters who can activate multiple opponents virtually at will (via Sith Sorcery), and who can probably both dish out huge amounts of damage. Cloaked and Ambush help increase the damage output, and also protect them to some extent.
It's a potential squad build that favors a very aggressive form of play (which, I think is perfectly in keeping with the Sith).
But I'm not saying that the whole concept should have solely on a Zannah/Bane squad. Personally, I think Cloaked and Ambush is a (thematically appropriate) combo that virtually any of the Sith Lords could benefit from. It helps answer to some of the faction's weaknesses.
I'm fine with all that... provided she does not have Soresu Style Mastery unless priced at 51 or above, and does not have the current version of Sith Sorcery unless priced at 60 or above.
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Post by saber1 on Dec 18, 2009 11:51:38 GMT -5
I'm all for using SS and LS Block instead of SSM, but Sith Sorcery is a must and is not a game-breaker at a cost below 50 points. Moreover, giving her the defensive combo listed above, she will be forced to choose between spending FPs for rerolling SS saves and rolling LS Block saves or attempting to activate enemies. My custom also incorporates Grip which entices the player to spend the FP on that as well. Even with Renewal, the likelyhood of pulling off more than 1 significant Sorcery is not high.
Remember, although powerful, Sorcery only has a 50% chance of success for each target and if more than one enemy is within range, that player isn't paying much attention to placement.
Also, the duo squad you mentioned will fall to a single piece. Any overrider will shut that squad down entirely on a map with any doors at all.
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Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 12:13:18 GMT -5
I think you're underestimating Sith Sorcery. Sure, only a 50% chance, but with the decent rolls, you can shut down half a squad as a single free use... and still move and attack.
I have no objection to her having Sith Sorcery, but the CURRENT Sith Sorcery from WotC doesn't belong on a piece below 60.
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Post by saber1 on Dec 18, 2009 12:29:14 GMT -5
I think you're underestimating Sith Sorcery. Sure, only a 50% chance, but with the decent rolls, you can shut down half a squad as a single free use... and still move and attack. Again, if this happens to an opponent, they are not playing very well AND rolling very poorly. The rub here is, until WotC explicitly states such, it doesn't belong anywhere and can possibly be anywhere. One SA or Force Power does not a broken figure make. Even my generously costed Zannah with FR and Sorcery coupled with the 82 point Bane leaves a meager 28 points for the remainder of a squad at 150. Only 20 points after the necessary inclusion of an Override piece. With the right mix of pieces for those 20 points, it will be a strong squad. However, I doubt it will be Tier 1. 200 points will make it much stronger, yet still not broken. I'm still convinced that a cost in the 40's adds the most positive effect for the Sith, the character and the game.
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