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Jerec
Dec 13, 2009 13:46:25 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 13, 2009 13:46:25 GMT -5
Missiles does this. Sure, it's not auto-damage, but if you've got 4 or 5 Vanguards shooting each time for 30, there's going to be a lot of damage going out. Also, Missiles replaces attacks and has no FP cost, while Force Destruction replaces turn and 4 costs FOUR FP. That means it gets off once or twice a skirmish. While you could pair Jerec with one of the Force battery Palpatines, the lack of manueverability in the fact that it replaces turn will mean your opponent can and will make it so it will only damage one or two of his characters. This is in no way better than things like Force Push 4 or Missiles 30, unless you're playing a squad with swarms of low-cost characters.
But, that aside, how would you suggest changing it, gwek? Perhaps we can come to a compromise.
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Jerec
Dec 13, 2009 15:18:03 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Dec 13, 2009 15:18:03 GMT -5
I don't think there's anything that's sight that can damage multiple targets (for the VERY good reason that, if used effectively, use can use the sight powers very early in the game, when your opponent might still be clustered into his starting area). If we're going to add a new power, we should use the existing ones as a model, and it should be one that does something DIFFERENT, rather than one that is simply BETTER. Missiles have sight and splash damage, and only replaces attacks. Also, Force Push 4 is direct damage, only replaces attacks, and only requires LOS. To be honest, I missed the activation part. I think if it was the damage and damage only it would be better balanced (maybe even a save for activation if we really want it).
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Jerec
Dec 14, 2009 0:08:04 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 14, 2009 0:08:04 GMT -5
You guys are right on Missiles and Force Push, but as has been pointed out, Missiles have a save (and also don't activate characters). Force Push 4 affects only a single target.
Destruction does HIGH DAMAGE and ACTIVATES the target and ALL ADJACENT CHARACTERS, with a range of SIGHT and NO SAVE. There's nothing that meets all of those criteria, making this (potentially) the single most powerful ability in the game.
I'm sorry, but I don't have specific thoughts on how to change it. I would suggest looking at existing abilities (especially the similar Force Push and Force Lightning series, and using them as a model. WotC is fairly consistent with how these abilities are structured, so we should do something that matches their structure, if possible.
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Jerec
Dec 14, 2009 13:59:50 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 14, 2009 13:59:50 GMT -5
Okay. I see your point. I think we should model it on a combination of two Force powers but making it replace turn. So Grip and Lightning I think would be best. So:
Force Destruction 4 (Force 4, replaces turn: sight; 40 damage to target and each adjacent character)
How does this look? Basically just dropped the activation part of it entirely.
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Jerec
Dec 14, 2009 14:03:57 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Dec 14, 2009 14:03:57 GMT -5
How about make it work kind of like Splash. Target takes 40 and those adjacent take 40, save 11 for 20. Makes it slightly better than Push 4, but also replaces turn.
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Jerec
Dec 14, 2009 14:21:10 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 14, 2009 14:21:10 GMT -5
Idk, that seems to make it unnecessarily complicated. Would you spend 4 FP and the turn of a 50 point character to do that? Especially with all the save rerolls with the NR and other Force users, it doesn't seem to practical, IMO.
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Jerec
Dec 14, 2009 15:20:05 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 14, 2009 15:20:05 GMT -5
I guess my question about Force Destruction is this: other than the "fluff", what functionally distinguishes it from Force Lightning (which does damage, may affect adjacent characters, and may activate characters who are effected)?
The main "runs" of Force attack powers seem to be Push, Repulse, Corruption, and Lightning. (Am I forgetting any?) Each has a distinct flavor and a distinctly different effect. If we're going to implement Destruction, it should have a different flavor and function, too.
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Jerec
Dec 14, 2009 19:21:37 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 14, 2009 19:21:37 GMT -5
I guess my question about Force Destruction is this: other than the "fluff", what functionally distinguishes it from Force Lightning (which does damage, may affect adjacent characters, and may activate characters who are effected)? Do you mean in terms of SWM, or in the Star Wars universe? The main "runs" of Force attack powers seem to be Push, Repulse, Corruption, and Lightning. (Am I forgetting any?) Each has a distinct flavor and a distinctly different effect. If we're going to implement Destruction, it should have a different flavor and function, too. Well, all do damage. Push pushes. Repulse pushes and affects a huge number of characters. Corruption has a chance to deal extra damage. Lightning deals huge damage, affects some adjacents, and may activate. And then there's Grip with sight instead of the usual range of 6. These cover a lot of the possibilities for direct-damage Force powers. Here's an excerpt from Wookieepedia: When used, a massive amount of energy was stored up within the user, drawn from the dark side of the Force, and with incredible concentration, the energy could be discharged using the user's own body as a conduit. Usually fired through the arm or hand, it could blast a large radius vaporizing anyone who got too near it. Even those who escaped direct contact with the blast would be pushed asunder by the power's backlash.
Using Force Destruction was a very exhausting power requiring a great deal of focus and concentration and could only be used a few times without requiring the user to rest. That said, I don't think we should make Destruction into an unleashed Force power. So this should be the only version of Destruction (I also think this is a good interpretation, correct me if I am wrong): Force Destruction (Force 4, replaces turn: sight; 40 damage to target and each character adjacent to that target)
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Jerec
Dec 14, 2009 21:15:14 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 14, 2009 21:15:14 GMT -5
Do you mean in terms of SWM, or in the Star Wars universe? I meant in terms of SWM. In the game, there is precedent to name something based on it's function rather than fluff. I'm pretty sure we're talking about It's A Trap! because it replicates Miraluka sight, not because Jerec is a quality tactician. Based on the description, Force Destruction is functionally identical to Force Lightning and/or Force Push. I would recommend that unless we come up with something that is substatantively different (and I don't mean just give it a better range...), we should instead use an existing ability.
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Jerec
Dec 15, 2009 14:00:01 GMT -5
Post by Dendrite on Dec 15, 2009 14:00:01 GMT -5
If we do go that route, then I would suggest Force Push 4, since Destruction always pushed the target back a bit rather than stunned them.
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Jerec
Dec 15, 2009 16:21:39 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 15, 2009 16:21:39 GMT -5
Force Destruction is not really similar to Force Lightning. The similarities (I'm talking SW here, not SWM) are that they both deal huge amounts of damage, and possibly to more than one character. Force Destrcution requires more preparation and energy on the part of the caster, but deals the damage instantly, while Lightning (as we see in Return of the Jedi) can take much longer to accomplish the same amount of damage. While Force Lightning can throw things around when used by higher level Force users, Force Destruction causes literally an explosion of the Force, flinging anything near it in an uncontrolled direction. It also affects those near the explosion, not those in a arc from the caster, like Lightning. The user basically fires a ball of Force energy at an area, making it basically like a missile from a hand-held launcher.
Now how to get this into an FP (talking SWM now). Sight works, replaces turn works, high damage works, we could add in a minor push affect (one or maybe two squares). This is relatively different from Lightning and Push, in fact it's basically a combination of the two, but with sight (I'm excluding Push 4 because it doesn't fit with the rest of the Push family). So change Force Destruction to this:
Force Destruction (Force 4, replaces turn: sight; 40 damage to target and each character adjacent to that target. Push back damaged characters 2 squares if Huge or smaller)
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Jerec
Dec 15, 2009 16:32:31 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 15, 2009 16:32:31 GMT -5
As I've said before, if the power is simply a functional upgrade of an existing power, I don't think we should use it.
What you've proposed is Force Push, trading some of the push for a far superior range.
Other than the difference in range, I don't see anything functionally unique about Destruction.
I strongly advise against having a "sight" range on a Force power this potent. It's a serious game balance issue.
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Jerec
Dec 15, 2009 16:53:16 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 15, 2009 16:53:16 GMT -5
I strongly advise against having a "sight" range on a Force power this potent. It's a serious game balance issue. Not really. It replaces TURN, and costs FOUR FP. That means no Mobile (not like he can get it, but anyway) Push 4-ing, like the Rebels can get. THAT's a game balance issue, IMO. While it may seem like an upgrade of Push, it's really not. It may even be a downgrade from Force Push 4. Sure, it affects adjacents, but you have to give up Jerec's entire turn, and your opponent controls who is adjacent to certain characters, for the most part. It also has a far less powerful pushing effect. It is unique in that it is Destruction, an amazing Force power in the SW universe simply because of its power and the fact that only a few Force users could use it. It offers something different. Anyone else have any opinions of Destruction, either way. Personally, I'd like it to stay, but if the majority are against me I could see Force Lightning 2 or something instead.
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Jerec
Dec 15, 2009 17:02:45 GMT -5
Post by Dendrite on Dec 15, 2009 17:02:45 GMT -5
Personally, I'd like to see something work out for it...since its almost his signature power. If it means we have to bump up his cost, then that's fine...otherwise, like I said, I'd be fine with Force Push 4 to get across the same idea.
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Jerec
Dec 15, 2009 20:19:31 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 15, 2009 20:19:31 GMT -5
Yes, please. Everyone weigh in! Meantime: It is unique in that it is Destruction, an amazing Force power in the SW universe simply because of its power and the fact that only a few Force users could use it. It offers something different. But WHAT does it offer that's different? "It's an awesome power that only a few people can use" is just fluff unless it does something mechanically interesting and unique in the game. We should try to create a few new abilities as are necessary, and other than the "fluff", I've yet to see the need for it.
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