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Demagol
Dec 17, 2009 1:58:13 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Dec 17, 2009 1:58:13 GMT -5
What Wizards does with their characters is not out business. The customs we make are.
I suppose Mettle works, but let's get confirmation from others.
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Demagol
Dec 17, 2009 2:41:01 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 17, 2009 2:41:01 GMT -5
With all due respect, what WotC does with their characters IS our business... Certainly mine, at least. I signed onto this project for game balance, and large part of that is making our pieces feel as much like "real" WotC pieces as possible. (And for the record, I really only brought Nomi into it to basically say, "I can justify Mettle for Demagol much better than WotC can justify it for Nomi! So there! )
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Demagol
Dec 17, 2009 8:16:49 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 17, 2009 8:16:49 GMT -5
Im ok with Mettle, there arent that many characters who will be affected by it anyway.
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Demagol
Dec 17, 2009 17:36:58 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 17, 2009 17:36:58 GMT -5
I just don't find giving Mettle to those in the Fringe useful. There are a total of 15 Fringe Force users from WotC, 11 of which are Unique. Two of them have Force Renewal, giving them endless Mettle uses if they so choose. Almost all of the characters without Force Renewal have only one to three Force points and/or rely heavily on their Force points (ie Kreia). This means that the CE has very limited use unless you can pair the non-Uniques with a Force battery or a commander who can give out Force points. As luck would have it, Demagol here can be in a Sith squad via Ulic Qel-Droma, which means access to HoloSid and lots of Force points for everyone. Don't forget that (currently) Vergere is a Fringe piece with Dark Master, so any single Unique piece can spend her Force points. Vergere+ Demagol + Jarael? No offense, but I don't think it's right for you to impose your own ideas about Squad design on others. I agree that it's not the most effecient choice, but that doesn't mean someone might not want to do it. Consider Uliq, Demagol, and HoloSid. Not a bad combo, really. Uliq is a solid combatant, and the addition of HoloSid gives him unlimited Force points. Demagol gives him Mettle (great for re-rolling a rare missed attack or a save for Lightsaber Block). Demagol is a decent shooter and if he hangs close to Ulic, he can either heal (via Homicdal Surgery) or take damage (via Ulic's commander effect). As an added bonus, he gets some Force points that he can use to re-roll missed attacks (or to catch up if Ulic uses Master Speed). In 150 or higher, that core has the option of adding either potent Force-users or skilled ranged attackers (or both). Now, I'm not saying that it's a Tier 1 squad, but it's certainly a playable option. My point here is that squad design should enter into custom creation as a game balance issue, but as a "Let's not do that, because I'd never play it" issue. Zayne gains a HUGE benefit from pairing his Karmic Mettle with regular Mettle. With up to 4 attacks per activation, Maris can definitely benefit from the option of having Mettle for instances when she's trying to finish off an opponent with melee but misses. Even though they have limited Force points, both Jarael and the Jensaarai Defender have a nice synergy with Mettle due to their defensive capabilities. Jarael (and Kreia, for that matter) has Triple Attack, which makes Mettle always a nice option to have. You're completely correct that Fringe characters can gain Mettle in the Old Republic, but that shouldn't stop us from giving it to another faction. Since most of the Fringe Force pieces are melee, they arguably gain stronger support from the Mandos (who are better ranged combatants overall). Again, personal opinion of squad design should not be reason to nix an idea (unless it points to abuse, which I don't see in this case). But it's perfectly okay and "canonical" for Ulic and HoloSid to be in the same squad? Do I even need to point out what weak tea that argument is? I noted the option of bringing Demagol into a Sith squad not because it's in anyway canonical, but because it's an interesting game element. There's not currently a ton of reasons to pair the Mandos and Sith via Ulic. I think Demagol increases those options and, potentially, makes the faction pairing more appealing (My personal opinion). While I may be "imposing" my ideas on squad design on others, pretty much everything I post (except for the hard facts) is my opinion, and instead of righting "IMO" after every sentence, I think it's just generally accepted. If someone values my opinion, then they will consider it, but I can't see someone who doesn't even know me taking my opinion as the bottom line in squad construction. I don't really see what you're trying to say; I'm merely stating my opinion. Also, still on squad design, I look at the two extremes when considering a piece: abuse and uselessness. As everyone should. There's really no point in making a piece if it's useless or abusive. This CE, while not useless, is so dependant on an expensive character to be effective makes it much less useless, IMO. On the canonical issue: while it's not canonical that Ulic and HoloSid be in the same squad, they don't DEPEND on each other to be effective (again, my opinion). As you've already said, MtU was his boss, so it would make the most sense for him to be effective with ManUlt, not HoloSid. Whether this changes anything or not, Mettle actually fits Nomi pretty well. Mettle is described as (real-world, not SW, since I couldn't find a good definition anywhere and can't find my RPG book with its definition) having heart, inner strength, spirit, courage, temperament, valor, etc., which fits Nomi very well. A lot better than what Demagol sounds like. All that said, the last version of Demagol you posted, gwek, is very good, except for the CE, which I still think doesn't fit. While he may have understood the Force, it takes a powerful Jedi to learn the things that have to deal with "inner spirit", which is very, very difficult for a non-Force user to comprehend. And him teaching Jarael to push her limits would be much better represented in Synergy or some variant of Light Tutor, IMO. And, on a different note, but staying with the custom you posted, gwek, the change in CE is pretty powerful, IMO, in a Sith squad. It can effectively give all characters with a single attack (even those without a Force rating) a +4 bonus to attack. Not really a problem because Malak, DLotS can do that and better for a lower cost, but like you said Ulic with FR 1 and Mettle is still crazy. Just something to consider.
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Demagol
Dec 17, 2009 20:37:22 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 17, 2009 20:37:22 GMT -5
Apologies if I came across as harsh. I interpreted your squad design-related issues as basically "Well, I would never use that, so I say let's not bother doing it."
I understand (and agree with) what you're saying about abuse and uselessness, but felt that perhaps you were placing a little too much personal preference on the "useless" category.
As for having synergy with ManUlt vs HoloSid: as I've said, I was merely pointing out one possible unconventional use for him with HoloSid. As you yourself have said in the Zannah thread, the Sith faction can use help. I would think the fact that he's of some use to TWO of the lesser factions (albeit in some very specific builts) would be a point in his favor rather than a sticking point.
With respect to ManUlt, given that they both affect Fringe pieces (Demagol's CE and ManUlt's Mandalorian Conscription), I'd say that they do have an potentially interesting dynamic.
I appreciate your alternate suggestions of Synergy and Light Tutor, but I think Synergy with a single character is a bit too "niche" (and, honestly, I think Synergy is quite often over-used on customs). Light Tutor seems to be better suited to someone who already has the Force if they're going to share it
(Also, in the comic--and this is a fine line--Demagol/Rohlan is constantly pushing Jarael to her limits, but he's also pushing Zayne to teach her how to use the Force, so, traslating that to SWM mechanics, he's looking for Zayne to be the Light Tutor...).
And again, I would think this would be a point in favor of the current CE. Helps the right Mando build AND the right Sith built. And also encourages the idea of a blended Sith/Mando squad. While certainly not canon, I think that's a good thing from a squad building perspective.
Bottom line: my personal opinion is that the Demagol I've put together, commander effect included, is a good (and pretty well-balanced) representative of the character.
At 100 points, he's an odd bird, primarily useful for for bringing a healing option to the Mandos, or for creating a little synergy with the Fringe (in a faction that has NO synergy with the Fringe).
At higher point values, he remains quirkly, encouraging some potentially unconventional squad-building ideas to maximize his abilities.
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Demagol
Dec 17, 2009 21:10:07 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 17, 2009 21:10:07 GMT -5
Apology accepted. I kind of see where you're coming from now, and I could actually see it working if others agree with the CE in this version. It does make sense, even if it's odd.
On Light Tutor: I didn't suggest using it (even though it would fit, to a limited degree, which happened to be a coincidence), but rather a variation of it. Something like:
Knowledge of the Force (At the start of the skirmish, choose one Unique allied character with a Force rating. For the rest of skimish, that ally gains +2 attack and Mettle[or whatever])
Thoughts? Based on what you've said, this would fit better canonically, but would be slightly less practical in the Mando faction and SWM as a whole.
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Demagol
Dec 18, 2009 1:41:37 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 1:41:37 GMT -5
An interesting variation (and would, again, make for a nice pairing with Ulic). If folks are okay with it, I think I'd be more inclined for the Mettle CE, which could (potentially) have a broader effect.
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Demagol
Dec 18, 2009 20:08:54 GMT -5
Post by Dendrite on Dec 18, 2009 20:08:54 GMT -5
I think a Mettle CE could work. Though reading through the thread, I'm a little confused on the stance on Jedi Hunter?
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Demagol
Dec 18, 2009 20:20:07 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 18, 2009 20:20:07 GMT -5
I liked Jedi Hunter, but it might not be that canon since he helped jedi as well.
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Demagol
Dec 18, 2009 22:14:30 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 22:14:30 GMT -5
In fairness, I think the majority of characters with Jedi Hunter DO help Force-users (or are Force-users themselves).
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Demagol
Dec 18, 2009 22:30:14 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 18, 2009 22:30:14 GMT -5
I'm ok with it
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Demagol
Dec 18, 2009 22:49:34 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 18, 2009 22:49:34 GMT -5
I don't know if this is part o the confusion from earlier, but my feeling is that Jedi Hunter is appropriate for him, but not as a commander effect FROM him...
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Demagol
Dec 19, 2009 7:34:40 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 19, 2009 7:34:40 GMT -5
I like him having Jedi Hunter, but definately not as a CE
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Demagol
Dec 19, 2009 9:58:25 GMT -5
Post by Dendrite on Dec 19, 2009 9:58:25 GMT -5
I like him having Jedi Hunter, but definately not as a CE Same
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Demagol
Dec 19, 2009 12:40:57 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 19, 2009 12:40:57 GMT -5
I'm okay with the Mettle CE, as others seem to accept it. Can you post a final version, gwek?
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