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Demagol
Dec 13, 2009 13:58:28 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 13, 2009 13:58:28 GMT -5
I have never read more than a couple of the KotOR comics, I'm just going based on what you guys are saying and what I got skimming through the Wookieepedia article.
That said, while Mettle may show his relationship with Jarael, boosting one piece because it is canonical doesn't make sense in SWM. Other than things like Synergy and Rapport, there are very, very few abilities/CEs that don't affect (or boost) the majority of the characters from one faction. I just feel that, from a minis point of view, Mettle doesn't work. The only way it would be beneficial is if for some reason you're playing Mandos with a bunch of Fringe characters (which means you either spend 75 points to make them subject to CEs or have only this guy's CE affecting them) or if you bring the Mandos into a Sith squad with Ulic and HoloSid. Powerful? Yes. But practical? No.
I just can't see WotC ever making a piece that gives Mandos Mettle. It's just too weird, IMO. Anyone else have any suggestions for Demagol's CE?
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Demagol
Dec 13, 2009 15:03:37 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Dec 13, 2009 15:03:37 GMT -5
I also think Mettle is very odd. Better of with Synenergy if you want to show his relationship with Jarael.
I don't even know if Demagol should have a CE. As previously stated, Demagol was kind of an outside even to his fellow Mandos. If he was an outcast, I don't think he would be leading them.
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Demagol
Dec 13, 2009 23:27:16 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 13, 2009 23:27:16 GMT -5
yea perhaps give him opportunist for being such a crafty guy, and dropping the CE all together, He definately was an outcast, hes basically the Benedict Arnold of Mandos. Hes a Mando that the Mandos hate, much like the Death Watch.
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Demagol
Dec 13, 2009 23:31:08 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 13, 2009 23:31:08 GMT -5
In SWM, commander effects are used for two purposes. Yes, they typically boost one's allies, but they also act as limiters. Does anyone really think GMLS has the commander effect that he does because it's going to really help the New Republic? He has it so that he can't count as a follower (although there are, admittedly, a few pieces who can benefit).
I was looking at a commander effect as something of a limiter for Demagol. The idea that it limits him from benefitting from commander effects while also not affecting any (current) Mandos fits with the oddball feel of the character.
I think anyone who knows Demagol can agree that he's a weird dude.
I would also point out that such a commander effect is NOT unprecedented. Ulic Qel-Droma has a commander effect for Mandalorians--not Sith, but Mandalorians... a faction that did not exist until the set after he was introduced. While Ulic can bring Mandos into his faction, similarly, Demagol can easily be played with Fringe characters who can benefit.
The commander effect that I'm suggesting implies that, to benefit, you're going to play a non-standard Mando squad (which is perfectly in keeping with Demagol's character, I think). And, hey, just as you can play Ulic without Mando allies, you don't have to play someone who can benefit from Mettle. Homicidal Surgery alone is worth it, as he gives the Mandos a unique and interesting healing option.
Exempting the option of Mettle pre-supposes that there will NEVER be a character with Force points in the Mandalorian faction. Don't forget that Bardan Jusik only missed being in this set by one vote. And if we were doing characters who'd already been done, there was a lot of support for a Jaina Solo with Mandalorian Affinity.
Since he works best with Fringe pieces, Demagol also (by extension) works well with Mandalore the Ultimate... who happened to be his boss.
I agree with you guys that it's a very weird option, but Demagol is a very weird guy, and I think this is an opportunity to synch the gameplay version of the character very well with his fictional appearances.
So... Commander effect aside, where do we stand on him?
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Demagol
Dec 14, 2009 14:05:38 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 14, 2009 14:05:38 GMT -5
I see your point, but I agree that no CE would be better than weird CE. If he's an outcast and a loner, you could give him:
Outcast (This character is not subject to commander effects)
Instead of giving him a CE, when it doesn't really fit/need to be there.
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Demagol
Dec 14, 2009 14:57:30 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 14, 2009 14:57:30 GMT -5
I'd argue that if you read the comic, the weird commander effect is more in keeping with the way the character is written than Outcast would be.
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Demagol
Dec 14, 2009 20:40:49 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 14, 2009 20:40:49 GMT -5
You know Mettle for fringe character force users wouldn't be half bad at all. There arent that many force users for fringe anyway.
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Demagol
Dec 15, 2009 17:53:28 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Dec 15, 2009 17:53:28 GMT -5
But it's a totally disjointed CE and unconnected with his faction. At least Ulic's was very connected to a faction that would eventually exist. Followers getting Mettle is similar to if Ulic's CE granted BG to Mandos without letting them into the Sith faction.
But all this arguing is just for his CE. What do we have for the rest of his stats which is the bigger part of the character as a whole.
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Demagol
Dec 15, 2009 20:56:33 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 15, 2009 20:56:33 GMT -5
But it's a totally disjointed CE and unconnected with his faction. At least Ulic's was very connected to a faction that would eventually exist. Followers getting Mettle is similar to if Ulic's CE granted BG to Mandos without letting them into the Sith faction. I don't think that's a fair comparison at all. Uliq is from Faction A, but only characters from Faction B (who can readily be in the same squad with him) can benefit from his commander effect. This is an indentical situation. Further, I direct your attention to Master Kota, a Republic piece with Affinity for the Rebels... whose commander effect does not impact Rebels or Republic at all, but Fringe pieces only. Precedent exists--in both cases, flavor-based to accurately reflect the characters they represent, just like I'm trying to do here. So where do we stand on the rest of the stats? I think we got somewhat sidelined with the commander effect discussion.
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Demagol
Dec 16, 2009 19:36:28 GMT -5
Post by bountyhunter9 on Dec 16, 2009 19:36:28 GMT -5
I just don't find giving Mettle to those in the Fringe useful. There are a total of 15 Fringe Force users from WotC, 11 of which are Unique. Two of them have Force Renewal, giving them endless Mettle uses if they so choose. Almost all of the characters without Force Renewal have only one to three Force points and/or rely heavily on their Force points (ie Kreia). This means that the CE has very limited use unless you can pair the non-Uniques with a Force battery or a commander who can give out Force points. As luck would have it, Demagol here can be in a Sith squad via Ulic Qel-Droma, which means access to HoloSid and lots of Force points for everyone.
But the problem is that Ulic + Sidogram is already 72 points. Throw in Demagol, and we're looking at nearly 100 points just to give followers with a Force rating FR 1 and Mettle. That's not very practical when you can give the same Fringe characters with Force rating FR 1, and no Mettle for just 11 points. The two Fringe characters that already have FR 1 (Zayne Carrick and Maris Brood) don't benefit greatly from Mettle (although Zayne with normal Mettle is very interesting, he can get it cheaper in the OR, which actually provides more synergy for him than the Mandos, unless you're paying 75 points for MtU).
Further, as I've said before, since it's not canonical (I think) that he fought/aligned with the Sith and in particular with HoloSid or Ulic, I don't see the CE as suitable. I think it should be dropped, even if he's subject to CEs. I don't find that to be a major problem.
What stats/abilities are we giving Demagol, again? Can someone post an updated/recent version of what we've got?
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Demagol
Dec 16, 2009 20:00:17 GMT -5
Post by darthgrievous on Dec 16, 2009 20:00:17 GMT -5
Hit Points: 80 Defense: 17 Attack: 10 Damage: 10
Unique Twin Attack Homicidal Surgery 30 Mobile Attack ?Outcast? not subject to commander effects?
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Demagol
Dec 16, 2009 23:39:46 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 16, 2009 23:39:46 GMT -5
I just don't find giving Mettle to those in the Fringe useful. There are a total of 15 Fringe Force users from WotC, 11 of which are Unique. Two of them have Force Renewal, giving them endless Mettle uses if they so choose. Almost all of the characters without Force Renewal have only one to three Force points and/or rely heavily on their Force points (ie Kreia). This means that the CE has very limited use unless you can pair the non-Uniques with a Force battery or a commander who can give out Force points. As luck would have it, Demagol here can be in a Sith squad via Ulic Qel-Droma, which means access to HoloSid and lots of Force points for everyone. Don't forget that (currently) Vergere is a Fringe piece with Dark Master, so any single Unique piece can spend her Force points. Vergere+ Demagol + Jarael? No offense, but I don't think it's right for you to impose your own ideas about Squad design on others. I agree that it's not the most effecient choice, but that doesn't mean someone might not want to do it. Consider Uliq, Demagol, and HoloSid. Not a bad combo, really. Uliq is a solid combatant, and the addition of HoloSid gives him unlimited Force points. Demagol gives him Mettle (great for re-rolling a rare missed attack or a save for Lightsaber Block). Demagol is a decent shooter and if he hangs close to Ulic, he can either heal (via Homicdal Surgery) or take damage (via Ulic's commander effect). As an added bonus, he gets some Force points that he can use to re-roll missed attacks (or to catch up if Ulic uses Master Speed). In 150 or higher, that core has the option of adding either potent Force-users or skilled ranged attackers (or both). Now, I'm not saying that it's a Tier 1 squad, but it's certainly a playable option. My point here is that squad design should enter into custom creation as a game balance issue, but as a "Let's not do that, because I'd never play it" issue. Zayne gains a HUGE benefit from pairing his Karmic Mettle with regular Mettle. With up to 4 attacks per activation, Maris can definitely benefit from the option of having Mettle for instances when she's trying to finish off an opponent with melee but misses. Even though they have limited Force points, both Jarael and the Jensaarai Defender have a nice synergy with Mettle due to their defensive capabilities. Jarael (and Kreia, for that matter) has Triple Attack, which makes Mettle always a nice option to have. You're completely correct that Fringe characters can gain Mettle in the Old Republic, but that shouldn't stop us from giving it to another faction. Since most of the Fringe Force pieces are melee, they arguably gain stronger support from the Mandos (who are better ranged combatants overall). Again, personal opinion of squad design should not be reason to nix an idea (unless it points to abuse, which I don't see in this case). But it's perfectly okay and "canonical" for Ulic and HoloSid to be in the same squad? Do I even need to point out what weak tea that argument is? I noted the option of bringing Demagol into a Sith squad not because it's in anyway canonical, but because it's an interesting game element. There's not currently a ton of reasons to pair the Mandos and Sith via Ulic. I think Demagol increases those options and, potentially, makes the faction pairing more appealing (My personal opinion).
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Demagol
Dec 16, 2009 23:52:28 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 16, 2009 23:52:28 GMT -5
What I'd like to see is this: DemagolCost: Faction: Mandalorians Hit Points: 80 Defense: 17 Attack: 10 Damage: 10 UniqueTwin Attack Homicidal Surgery 30 (Replaces turn: touch; deal 30 damage to a living character. An allied character can instead remove 30 damage from itself with a save of 11.) Jedi Hunter (+4 Attack and +10 Damage against enemies with Force ratings) Mobile Attack (Can move both before and after attacking) Commander Effect: Allies within 6 squares gain Mettle. (Note the internal synergy between Homicidal Surgery, which requires a save to allow an ally to heal, and the commander effect, which grants an ally with a Force rating the opportunity to reroll with a bonus.)
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Demagol
Dec 17, 2009 0:17:54 GMT -5
Post by Roque Saber on Dec 17, 2009 0:17:54 GMT -5
As it is, that looks actually like a fun piece. But I'm still bugged by the CE. How does it represent his character? He had affinity with Jarael...ok. What else, why Mettle?
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Demagol
Dec 17, 2009 1:45:10 GMT -5
Post by gwek on Dec 17, 2009 1:45:10 GMT -5
He was constantly pushing her to test her limits--and to go beyond what she perceived to be her limits. I see the commander effect as a reflection of his "You need to be tougher and more focused!" attitude (usually directed at Jarael, but also periodically at Zayne).
As a former teacher of Force-sensitive students (which is what we've recently discovered he was) and a scientist who studied Jedi, he has an interesting understanding of how the Force works.
And, really, other than requiring a Force point, isn't Mettle perfectly in keeping with the Mando mindset?
Also: Why does Nomi give Mettle? I've got no idea!
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